Leadership In Law Podcast

27 Pitfalls of AI and Social Media in Litigation with Hillary Johns

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 27

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Ever wondered what it takes to thrive in the courtroom while championing social causes? Meet Hillary Johns, a seasoned civil trial lawyer who shares her journey from being inspired by legal dramas to becoming a managing partner of her firm. In this episode, Hillary reveals why she embraces the complexities and excitement of trial work, unlike many of her peers. Her approach to maintaining a broad practice area showcases a return to the general practitioner model, allowing her to offer comprehensive legal services. Beyond her professional life, Hillary's dedication to supporting military personnel and domestic violence organizations highlights her unwavering commitment to positively impacting her community.

Curious about the role of AI and cybersecurity in shaping the legal field? We tackle the pressing issues surrounding AI's integration into legal practices, especially in key states like California and New York. From concerns about potential inaccuracies to the ethical implications of relying on AI, we explore the importance of accuracy and transparency in legal research. You'll learn why legal professionals must remain vigilant and how professional liability insurance can be a safety net against AI-related errors. As AI continues to evolve, our conversation underscores the necessity for clear communication and consent with clients, ensuring that the legal community remains informed and prepared for the challenges and opportunities ahead.

Reach Hillary here:
https://hillarytriallawyers.com/

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, hillary Johns, to the show today. Hillary is a civil trial lawyer who has tried more than 100 cases to verdict. She's the managing partner for Hillary Johns Trial Lawyer, which maintains offices in Beverly Hills, the Bay Area and New York City. She practices in the areas of civil litigation, business law, torts, defamation and media law, intellectual property, employment law and entertainment law. Hillary works with the American Bar Association to provide legal services to military personnel. She's a member of the Legal Network for Gender Equality through the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund and also served as pro bono attorney and volunteer for local, statewide and national domestic violence organizations. Outside of her legal career, she's a competitive ranked soccer player and professional athlete. She's a licensed competitive youth soccer coach. That is so exciting. I'm excited to have you here, hillary. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here, marilyn, I appreciate you inviting me.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, I love all the work you're doing, especially with domestic violence organizations and the military. Those are two things that are very close to my heart, so I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, tell us a little bit about how you got started.

Speaker 3:

How I got started is I you know I was finishing up my pro sports career and are going towards that and I really wanted to be a trial lawyer and I really that was. I tried to figure out if would being a lawyer be boring, would this be something that I could do all day and make a good living at it? And I'd seen LA law and I'd seen Perry Mason. It sounded very fun and I looked at it and I and I know a lot of lawyers and I'm related to some lawyers or close to some. So I looked at it and I and I know a lot of lawyers and I'm related to some lawyers or close to some. So I looked at it and I really wanted to be a trial lawyer and I that's what I wanted to do, and then as I got into it I learned that most lawyers really don't want to be trial lawyers.

Speaker 3:

You know they don't mind litigating and they don't mind that, but they don't want to be the ones that get up in front of the jury and argue the case, put the case together and are in the lead, and you know they have to take their licks in court and things like that, and I developed that and I had a good winning percentage and I liked it and it was the part I found I really enjoyed about it and I found it's been very beneficial to clients in a lot of ways.

Speaker 3:

One, you know, to be able to take a case to trial. Level Two, I think also for negotiations, you know, and to assist clients, because you can honestly say I've been there, I've done this, this is how this goes, and I do think when you're representing a client, to have a client, to have an attorney there and say this is one that goes to trial, they're going to take you a lot more seriously. They take your clients a lot more seriously, and I think that's been really nice. And I think trial by jury or having a trial, is so fundamental to our legal system, regardless of your politics, regardless of what you believe.

Speaker 3:

It's really one of the main things that separates us from any other country from any other legal system, that we have this process in place where you know a lot of countries or a lot of things. You hear I mean, I don't know them too well, but you hear these things oh, this is how it goes and you're very limited. You know, maybe you have rights, maybe you don't, but I think that's what was so fundamental to us in the US and I think that's and I, you know, I'm very proud to be a part of that and proud to be a part of that, and I think we have the best legal system. I really do think we have the best legal system in the world, so we're very fortunate.

Speaker 2:

I agree. I agree, and it was interesting. My next question was how'd you niche down? It sounds like you chose what you wanted to do from the beginning, and that's that's pretty interesting, where some people you know they try different things. They go in a firm and they end up doing different things and then find the one thing they really like. So it's interesting, you picked it right away and you're obviously very good at it if you've done over a hundred cases and you enjoy it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, a lot of lawyers you could pick different areas. That was another decision I made early on was I didn't want to focus on just one practice area. The days of the general practitioner are sort of back in a lot of ways, because people are tired of saying I have to get six attorneys. You know, I need a real estate attorney, I need an insurance attorney.

Speaker 3:

I need an intellectual property and it's costing them and I'm really uh, but I do know I a lot of the attorneys, I know, particularly the older attorneys now but when I was younger didn't just focus on one or two areas because you don't know, we don't do that, we don, we don't do that. And certainly if you don't have that skill set, you need to tell them like I don't trust in estate planning.

Speaker 4:

That's not my area. I have to tell them I'm not a tax law.

Speaker 3:

We advise them. But a lot of these areas that there's a lot of crossover in a lot of them. For example, entertainment law is a lot of it is. You know, profit sharing, business law, intellectual property and employment law. That's a lot of what that is and being aware of what the other rules are in terms of profit sharing royalties and what those are, and how those are going to look, but there's really three areas.

Speaker 3:

So a lot of those areas are very, actually very similar, and so there's not really any reason you can't provide it. And so there's not really any reason you can't provide it. So that was another. It took a lot longer to do because you have to. You can't just pick up a book and read. Right, you know you can't just do a couple of cases.

Speaker 3:

It takes years and years and years to know how to do that and do a good job and feel comfortable in it and feel like, oh, that's not a question, I know. You know that's the nicer thing about getting older. As a lawyer, you kind of have to act like you know what you're doing, or you, just sort of go here and you can't tell the client I don't know.

Speaker 3:

And then you have your employer and you know things like that too, or look it up, or let me research it, and you know clients don't always like to hear that, and that's something I did learn, too is lawyers don't know everything.

Speaker 4:

I don't no one knows everything.

Speaker 3:

You know some things you have to look into that and there's a tactful way to say that to a client. It's like, yes, I do know how to do this, but let me check into this area because I don't know all the answers off the top of my head and I can't give you an automatic answer and I can't do those sort of things right now, but yeah, this is what I can do to help you. Whereas but I think a lot of people hear that in HR and corporate settings.

Speaker 2:

I'll give you the answer corporate settings.

Speaker 3:

I'll look at the data and give you the answer. So you have to sort of differentiate it in a way that makes the client feel comfortable.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, that makes sense, because I know in so many instances you're just told to say yes and we'll figure it out. But when you're advising a client, that's a completely different thing. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 3:

And they need to know what you know and what you don't know. And it's's okay to say you know that's a new area. I don't know, and you know it's no, or it often is. It often is in many areas like ai, cyber security, in a lot of intellectual property, employment law. These are evolving areas and you have to tell them look, this is an evolving area. This is an area that really hasn't been tested at the appellate level, so we don't't know. I mean, this is how, in practice, people are doing it. But I want to be clear to you this could change.

Speaker 3:

You know, this is a lot for example, in the states, particularly in the state of California, but also in New York and other states, saying this is the law right now. I can't tell you that a case isn't in an intellectual property, I can't tell you a case isn't going to come out or a governor might not come out and make some rules. You know, usually at the beginning of your employment law it's usually in January 1st and July 1st those are when all these they roll out all these new rules and they roll out all these Senate bills and things like that.

Speaker 3:

That's usually when they go into effect. So you know, we always tell them.

Speaker 4:

We have a little primer. We notify clients about the changes and what they can expect and how best to adapt to those.

Speaker 3:

So you prepare them before it comes out?

Speaker 2:

Do you find it's difficult being licensed into multiple states and having to keep track of multiple states' employment laws or that sort of thing? We have a lot of help and a great staff.

Speaker 3:

I mean getting everything put in place is the more difficult one. For example, new York and California are actually pretty similar and those are the main states that we practice in. For example, montana is a bit different it is, but we have systems in place for those and we have we sort of know what the differences are. For example, record you can't in the state of California. You can't record a person in most situations without their consent, whereas it's one party consent in New York. So you know we have those different ones. So we have rules within firm and we do advise them Sometimes. We usually adhere to the higher standard and we tell them look, if you go to another attorney you might get a different advice. We can't do that here because we're licensed in several different states and things like that, and we're very clear to clients what we can and can't do different states and things like that and we're very clear to clients what we can and can't do. We, california and New York have a lot of similarities.

Speaker 3:

I mean a lot Okay, so that that does make it. Those are our two primary areas. So it does make it a lot similar.

Speaker 3:

There are some differences and we just have to know them, and we have attorneys in states and staff in both states who are, you know, are like our staff in New York, are longtime residents there, so they're certainly familiar with the environment and things like that. All right, there are also cultural differences with, like something that's considered funny in LA, like a joke or something that you notice, or if it's a Hollywood joke, I mean like people in New York would be looking at you, whereas a political joke in New York, in Manhattan would be like oh well, you know more money, those sort of things.

Speaker 3:

So you have to know that, be sensitive to that Right right.

Speaker 2:

So then, okay, let's talk a little bit about new developments in the law. I mean, what do you, what are you seeing? I mean, obviously, the employment law we talked about, but what are you experiencing right now?

Speaker 3:

Well, we're seeing a lot of one. The AI and cybersecurity and data security is getting big. Those are huge areas that we're advising our clients what they need to do to protect themselves and make sure they're safe, what they can do with insurance, what they can't do with insurance, what they're going to be able to do and getting out reliable information. Part of it depends on their industry. Also, what we're seeing, you know, ai is really untested. You're already starting to see the lawsuits.

Speaker 3:

You're already starting to see how fast it's changed and whether or not that's a good idea for a particular business. It's one thing to enhance your photo. It's quite another to use it for information. Yeah, and do you really want them to do? And I've noticed just in everyday life how reliant we are on computers now and people just assume if a computer says something it's true, whereas, as we all know, it's not and that's actually based on human error. It could be based on, you know, whatever coding went in or what.

Speaker 3:

The computerist can only read what you give them and what's available, and if they're getting the wrong information or they're putting it together incorrectly, you're not going to get the right answer. It's that simple.

Speaker 2:

I mean, and it's like in any industry, when you get the output you have to double check it. Yeah, you know, even Amazon now is when you try to. When you publish a paperback book. One of the questions is did AI write this and was it extensively edited? There's a whole series of questions now because so many people are doing and just taking AI off the bat and just using it. It's dangerous to do that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we are. We don't do it at all. And I know there are some people like use AI Okay, do I ever get autocorrect? And go, oh, okay, yeah, sure, but we're checking that. And I have someone checking my work here, either an attorney or staff, grammatically and things like that. I think in the area of law that's not advisable. Quite certain people are doing it.

Speaker 4:

You know they had that case in.

Speaker 3:

New York a couple of years ago with a poor guy you know not a poor guy, but he used an AI thing and they weren't even real cases. I guarantee you that comes up. You already have issues with lawyers taking sites of cases and not even reading them. That's gone on for years. So they're citing cases.

Speaker 2:

There's always shortcuts right, but when you get a shortcut that's made up, that's completely different. Yeah exactly.

Speaker 3:

I just think there's too much risk involved in doing something like that. I think that it's the only person you're hurting literally the only person you're hurting is yourself and the firm, and the client, and you know what do you feel about AI and like these losses.

Speaker 2:

Would our professional liability insurance like cover that? Or is it just stupidity? Now you've got to.

Speaker 3:

That's another question. And again, we're actually doing a presentation with the Beverly Hills Bar Association, I believe, and we may do one in New York as well the Beverly Hills Bar Association, I believe, and we may do one in New York as well, with some very talented speakers that are talking about that very thing with court reporting and making the record and how that works. And you know, one of the ethical and practical tips we're saying is you better check with your insurance carrier and make sure that you're even covered on that, because that may be an exception, because a lot of these policies haven't really changed over the years. I mean, we've had the same carrier for years, so I can guarantee I doubt they've adapted to or they're just not going to tell you and it's going to be somewhere in there and you're going to have to look for it and they may call it something different than AI. So one, can you ethically do it? Do you have to tell a client I think you do If you're using AI in your research or you're using AI to record something or you're using AI for any reason, I think you need to tell them, either in your retainer or you need to get them to sign an acknowledgement saying we're going to be using this and you understand and agree to it, and not just that.

Speaker 3:

But I think you have to tell them there are some risks, what those risks are. They say, yeah, they said they were using it because I get to see it with a lawyer. They say, yeah, they told me they were using it, but they're lawyers. I figured they knew what they were doing.

Speaker 3:

That's an assumption that's what's going to happen, so you need to tell them this is what could happen. I think you need to go a few steps further with them.

Speaker 3:

You know, know a lot of these things like case texts and things like that. You really there are only a few reliable sources, even cases now, that you can read. So if you're online reading a case, in your case, I know case text is one that says generated by ai I don't think westlaw does and I have to check on that, but they have these and then they look at you, read them and you go, oh, this is, oh, this is not a you know, this is. I can't guarantee this is really what the court said.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, if they built a bot that used the actual text of those books, then it could reference that, but then you've got to consistently update it with the new precedent, any new updates that's come through. So it is. Oh, did the bot get it right?

Speaker 3:

No, yeah, did the bot get it right? No, yeah they do. So if you go to, as they say, go to these, they used to call it going to the books. You know, when I was, I started law practicing in the early nineties and you had Westlaw and that was a lot more efficient, but people still went to the library and did all those things and looked up.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, it's kind of like the legal Dewey Decimal System and you look at things and it took hours and hours and hours to look up five cases where it takes 20 minutes. Can you assume if it's generated by AA, it's right? What if you have a powerful quote or a precedent that said it's wrong? I mean there are ethical consequences. If you miss cite a case knowingly, it certainly looks bad, you know. Yeah, how many times have you all lawyers who've litigated a senior counsel? I don't think that has anything to do with the site, or I've had any embarrassing moment where your associate or you don't check your associates work, or you know whatever it is, and they get the site wrong and you're in court sitting going okay, that's wrong and you know closing counsel is very happy to hear that you know. So it's, you know those. But having ai adds another layer to that. So is the source of the information that you're getting. Just because someone said this is a case doesn't mean it is right, it really does and have you read it.

Speaker 3:

So not only have you read it, but if you read it from a reliable source, I don't know that you can't. You know, I had to look up a case the other day for a brief and I typed in case six. I'm like I gotta go to what take that extra human. I was really. I really did not have a lot of spare time and we weren't on an absolute deadline, but I had so many other things to do and I go. I better check on what's on, make sure that's what it says, because then I I felt I had some more reliance, whereas case text it says power generated by ai a lot of these things are saying I'm not saying I have nothing against case text, that's just a particular one that I used on that day.

Speaker 3:

There are a lot of those, but do you know that the case is right? I mean, that's pretty fundamental. We all learn this in law school. You got to get the case right. You got to say it right. You can't miscite it. There are certain rules about that.

Speaker 2:

So it doesn't matter if you're in california or if you're in if you're in indiana, or if you're in florida or texas or washington or maine, you know you got to do it right you still got to get it right and and it's like your gut feeling made you double check that and that that's what's on AI. I was like, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

Well, it's for the court of appeals too.

Speaker 3:

So it doesn't matter, right there, and so the but I think you really have to be careful. But there is and the clients need to know that that you're using AI research, are you using AI tools? And you know maybe a client may say, look, I don't like this, I want you to do it this way and I don't feel comfortable. And you know they need to know with potential conflict that this is an untested area. We don't really know how that's going to work. You know there could be a problem later.

Speaker 3:

And you know you're already getting these losses. I guarantee you. I'm not saying we won't use AI, I'm just saying there's going to be a lot of lawsuits about this. These are just starting they are starting.

Speaker 2:

Well, especially as things keep changing and adapting. Yeah, exactly, and it gets more and more. Now the different ones are actually scouring the web and can go to websites and that sort of thing. Exactly, yeah, the power is yet to be seen. I think there are going to be more lawsuits coming out of it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the power is yet to be seen and it's going to. I think there are going to be more lawsuits coming out of it and then you know, is it really worth using this at all? You know, it's because you know lawyers don't like mistakes. Lawyers don't like to lose all right.

Speaker 2:

I mean you got to balance the the. Okay, I'm going to save a lot of time, but then I've got to go double check that. Am I saving time if I have to double check what the eye tells me and it you know, and then I have to go double check that it was right? What I saved you as having to find that Now you can go look it up and see if it's correct.

Speaker 3:

So you can look it up, but also that they get everything because you didn't really do it yourself. You kind of had somebody else do it for you. Yeah, so you don't really know if that's correct or not, and it's, it can bring up a lot of issues. And is it accurate? Is the client okay with it? Are you covered by insurance for that?

Speaker 3:

yeah, yeah, if you started your research, whatever you did, and you missed some key sites and you lost the hearing and that's it for the client because you didn't want to get off your duck and go do this and you didn't have time and you're so busy and all you know we're all busy, all busy Lawyers are busy people. I mean, they are, it's just how it goes. So, having all those things and saying, well, you know, look, everybody else has to do, what makes you so special that you get around this? The answer is you don't, and so that's the problem there. I think that you really are seeing is. And then again, you know, if you made a mistake and you missed something, are you even covered by Milmark it's insurance at all? And I don't know that we are. I don't know, unless you have something in writing for your insurance carrier, what that means. Are you covered on your you?

Speaker 2:

know, I don't know. Yeah, I think in my opinion, you know they. They may not specifically. Like you said earlier, I don't think insurance companies are going to go and explicitly write it down. They have those miscellaneous paragraphs that cover anything that comes up. So it would be interesting to see if an error made would be covered by your E&O insurance.

Speaker 3:

Did you prepare for that? Yeah, and I think they take into consideration trends and what people are using in research. But, on the other hand, are you being a competent attorney and meeting the standard of? Care if you're using AI when you could just as easily spend a couple of extra hours doing that too. That's kind of like delegating responsibilities and saying I don't have time to deal with this, go do it. And then not checking their work and saying, well, I think they know how to do it. I don't really know.

Speaker 4:

You know there are those issues too.

Speaker 3:

If I delegated something to someone who? Well, we don't have them like that here, but didn't really know how to do something, didn't check their work and or had concerns about their performance and and didn't check it. Then am I really meeting the?

Speaker 2:

standard of care doing that? I don't know. Yeah, no, I think you answered the question yourself there. You know you're not if you just took it and ran with it. So yeah, so that I mean a lot of interesting questions coming up with AI being so prevalent and growing, as we're talking about, let's jump to social media, or media. So I know that you help clients. You would. You don't do PR, but you help them and and advise when it comes to social media and branding and that sort of thing. How do you help your clients with that and what are the pitfalls that you're finding?

Speaker 3:

Well, one we tell them. A lot of people, strictly of a certain generation, live their lives online. Yes, so they live their lives online. They have to respond. I know some certain generations, you know they they feel deprived if they can't. You know there's a real mental aspect and emotional aspect to it and I have to tell them. You know, anything you put online, do you really want this later or or not?

Speaker 3:

the retaliation but the responding you know, to an allegation because we you know we get a lot of these such and such said this online. I want this person punished. I wasn't going back to ai. It's not as easy as it used to be to take something down on tiktok or oh no, once it's there, it's on the internet, it's going to be hit somewhere. Yeah, it is, and it's you know well, they now have ai you know.

Speaker 3:

So the ai are screening these things and a lot of these companies are using ai to screen all these complaints and to do these things. So you know they have companies that will take them down. They can have had a lot of success doing that. A lot of them are going to that we also advise them.

Speaker 3:

Look, discretion is the better part of valor. I know you feel you have to answer right now. So you have a generation, a couple generations really, that they live their lives online because that's how they do things. And then you have other generations that don't trust it at all and never use it and have to do something. And then you have my generation, which is sort of in the middle of that.

Speaker 3:

Some use it, some don't, but certainly not as aggressively as others do, and so you're sitting there going okay, you know what am I going to do here and how am I going to do this. And you have to advise them use it sparingly, if at all. If you want to have one statement, that's fine. What is that statement and is this really a good idea? I generally advise against it. If there's an allegation or a lawsuit, or they may come out with one statement you know to say you know you're denying the allegations of the press release and you release it.

Speaker 3:

We've had clients like that, but they want so badly to respond and I have to tell them I really don't advise, particularly if there's litigation going on, because technically, being online is trying your case in the media. It is considered a form of media and they don't always understand that Some people won't stop. I've talked to attorneys. They have clients who will not stop posting and they will not stop doing this. And I'm like, okay, you can't take it down now, do you understand? You have to keep it up. There are attorneys and clients who have gotten sanctioned because it's a destruction of evidence, so you cannot take it down. Oh, when you take it down, yeah, so you cannot. Oh, when you take it down, yeah, they've had attorneys get hit. There was I don't remember which state, was virginia or texas.

Speaker 3:

They got a good verdict for a plaintiff, but it got reduced by like eight hundred thousand dollars, because the plaintiff had deleted evidence and taken it down off social media at the instruction of the attorney so both got hit so the attorney lost out on part of their fee and the plaintiff, who would have gotten a lot of money, got a lot of it taken out from sanctions for doing a lot of them too.

Speaker 3:

The court was not happy. If you take posts down during litigation or you know you're going to go to litigation, there's going to be a legal dispute, you're destroying evidence. If you get an agreement with opposing counsel, it's fine, but you know you going to go to litigation. There's going to be illegal speed. You're destroying evidence. If you get it, if you get an agreement with opposing counsel, it's fine, but you know you have the problem there. You're sort of flagging. I think this is a problem you know wow.

Speaker 3:

So there are legal effects to taking these down. Now we all know. You know, the classic is they're shredding, they're staying up late, they're shredding documents, or they put it in the fireplace.

Speaker 4:

You know they're burning it and that never happened. You know kind of thing.

Speaker 3:

This is another version of that. And I really don't think people are like oh, it's okay, I took it down now. But what about the reposts or people you know that are related to you know?

Speaker 4:

all those kinds of things.

Speaker 3:

It either has to stay there.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it has to be available, so like if someone's going. I also advise people. You know a lot of this stuff. It is amazing to me that people are still getting into the fake friends or following people or doing all these things. You can't do that. There are clear rules about. Lawyers cannot do that. You are also responsible for your private investigator and your staff. So it's excuse me and your client if they do anything like that. So you really need to tell them. I do not want you doing this. It is amazing to me. Even lawyers smart people you would think would know you don't. I mean, it seems to me common sense when you're doing due diligence online, to the extent you are legally allowed to, you know and there are rules about that that they like.

Speaker 3:

Oh, let's just take care of this person or problem, like we're not going to create a fake account and do these kinds of things.

Speaker 3:

Don't do it. Don't have your friend follow them. If you know someone who's already friends with them, you can ask them. That's that's appropriate to do. But you can't go around. You know doing these things and you need to be clear about that. So I mean, some of it really is common sense. You may not think taking down a post is destroying evidence, but it is. You can't say you're someone else and not to try to get into someone's account and see what they're doing. You shouldn't be having contact with them anyway. That is also an ex-party communication. So if you're wondering if you can do it, you have to think about these things and you have to think of it.

Speaker 3:

You know if you put a disguise on and went into some party and were looking around keeping track of someone. That's probably inappropriate Things like that Any any, I mean, but I mean you have to just look at it in a different context. Once you look at it in a different context, it's not as nebulous and hard to figure out. I don't have all the answers but, I always advise people this, and if you're going to talk about a controversial subject, are you okay with that? Are you sure about this? Do you really?

Speaker 3:

want to do this Because the immediacy of social media is very tempting to some people.

Speaker 4:

How many?

Speaker 3:

times have any of us wanted to say something, and you go yeah, I better not say that, and I'm going to think about that before and you're glad you did because later.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, and so many of these younger people and I hate to say it that way, but it's the dopamine hit they need to have that. Those likes and replies and comments and then and some things, some things, just, you know, it's a, it's reasonable and common sense. If you can say it's it's common sense, it's okay, it won't hurt anybody. But yeah, there's so much. I think it's so much better to be a lurker in a lot of places than it is to be a joining in the conversation.

Speaker 3:

I am very glad that when I was a kid, we did not have social media.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I'm a Gen Xer. I'm so glad in the 80s we didn't, we didn't record the stuff we did.

Speaker 3:

I know I am too, I think most people my age. I'm a Gen Xer too and I just I think we're all pretty happy to hear that because I don't yeah, I don't want everything. I know video, I mean, it'd be bad enough if you had a photo, embarrassing photo or something that was like you know that pole, you know they had Polaroids. Then they put Polaroids through a thing for a while To have those and look at those and go, okay, this is embarrassing. I just can't imagine how anxiety producing it must be for certain generations because they live their lives online. I just would be, I wouldn't be able to. But we advise them in these things and think about this. That generation of people I advise, I do notice they're like no, no, they really want to say something. They really have to, they really want it to be, they really want to be online and it's.

Speaker 2:

I don't know it's their identity. They don't have an identity that's not online. They do, and they don't have a social life and they don't have an idea that that's not online.

Speaker 3:

They do and they don't have a social life and they don't understand that and they really it's, really it's. To them it's more important than having health care and education. Sometimes it seems and it's not, but it's, you know, and again, part of it's a generational thing and how it's evolved and you know a lot of these kids have brand. A lot of these kids they're adults. A lot of these kids, they're adults. A lot of them are adults, have side hustles, their jobs, their professional presence and things like that.

Speaker 3:

You know most lawyers that I know well you know, they have some, they're posting articles, I think, but they're not posting everything they do online. You know they have privacy and they know that that's one of the few. Doctors are another one. They're not posting too much. Um, you know regardless, because they know it, those are professions where they're very confidential and very private right but a lot of them.

Speaker 2:

It's their job to get out and promo yeah and when you help, uh, so when you're helping clients do branding obviously you know you can't take things down if you think it's like litigation but, um, so in your um, media law and that sort of thing, do you advise what types of things to do for branding? So you know, like we were talking before the call. Then one of the things in my marketing program is I have I ask my clients to do an intro video. Very simple, this is who I am, this is what I do, this is how I can help you. Simple, right, and it's something that a lot of people find difficult talking to your phone, right, or talking to a camera. What kind of things would you advise if we were doing branding for, say, any any particular type of business that we'd be aware of not doing?

Speaker 3:

I think making any controversial political comments. Yes, I think making off-color jokes, making regional jokes, that I think in this day and age we get a lot of business from other regions and areas and I think making off-color jokes that are, you know, may sound funny or cool at the time. You know, it's a lot of those same things. Common sense may sound like a good idea, but it may be there later.

Speaker 3:

You know how often have you heard the video resurfaced or something like that, or I saw this person. You know, I think, if you keep it very, this is what we're doing. This is the point you know, some of our clients are talking about hot button topics.

Speaker 2:

You know, that's what they're there to do. I mean mean rage baiting is what we call it yeah, but they're shock jocks.

Speaker 3:

I mean, a lot of them are. They want to do this kind of thing. I, I think you need to. I had always. If there's a client doing it, I advise them. Look, you need to be careful. There are cases like alex jones and all these other things, where people really are getting sued and you need to be. You need to understand that and you know I probably would not ambush your guest. You know whoever you're talking about. Several different reasons because people will. They may find a lawyer who will sue I mean for what?

Speaker 3:

as if someone you know there's the very classic retaliatory one-star review because they're mad and they want to, they want to get you and so you see a lot of those and, unfortunately, most people those posts and people are happy with your work. But you know there was a wave of law, there were a lot of waves of lawsuits about people suing for that because it does damage your reputation and people know that. But I think people have sort of evolved past that so they realize there could be any number of reasons. I mean, if all the only, the only rating they have is a one star, that's a problem, but you know it's. People have to sort of use common sense. I also advise them that maybe you should sort of talk to the person you're talking to If you're doing an interview, something like this, beforehand, and sort of get this idea and talk to them about, you know, if they're comfortable with it, if there's the area it depends, if you want to stay on good terms with it. Most people do.

Speaker 3:

Most people do people come back or be willing to cooperate and then you say, oh God, I mean I I've had a couple of podcasts where I'm like, okay, this is not what we talked about. Like they were, they wanted to talk about lightning rod political issues and what I felt about and I was like, okay, and.

Speaker 3:

I think one of them was when Roe versus Wade was overturned and you know all this kind of thing. I'm like, yeah, that's not why we were here. I'm not discussing what the effects are on that, but I do think you need to prep them and say look, think about this, and you know at the time, you know, because some people just get, they have to say it. I've found most people are sensitive to their brand. They have to say it I've found.

Speaker 3:

most people are sensitive to their brand and they'll say it If you put it to them. In a context of this is your professional reputation. Once you listen, it's hard to get back. Do you really want to get the reputation as doing something like that?

Speaker 4:

And what on the whole?

Speaker 3:

does that do to your brand? Because if people aren't endorsing or supporting your brand. They're going to go somewhere else. You know you don't. There's all look. There's always going to be people don't like them. I had one client who called me and he was just in tears because he's an influencer and he's doing a good job and he's gaining popularity and he was so upset. I said you've got a hater. He was so upset about it but he'd lost perspective and he he thought about it like you're right, I do have a hater.

Speaker 2:

I do you know there's going to be those. It's kind of you, you knew you made it, you know you made it. If you got someone that was trying to drag you down. That's kind of I think that's offline and online.

Speaker 3:

That's the way, it's always been right, that's that's exactly what is I said've got to hate it. You're doing well, because they wouldn't be after you if you weren't. And he got that. I think he and it was true. But I also think you have to think about reputational damage and what you could be doing, because you know that's the problem you often see in anything In politics. You see it, they just keep going and they don't hit the stop button. You know, and say wait, they don, they don't hit the stop button. You know and say wait, they don't, they don't course correct they're. They just keep doing it and after a while you're like, yeah, you've already got that reputation.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, you get it on.

Speaker 3:

And it's you know, maybe that's something that should be kept private you know, and not to think of it as a whole, and and and the again. I think the immediacy of social media.

Speaker 4:

You know's, it's the same adage.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes people will say things to you and you're not ever going to look at them the same way. You're never going to. You're you're never going to, you're never going to be okay with that and I, I think you have to say look, you know, if you do these things, have you considered this? And I think, with the culture and with the immediacy, people don't think about it and I they need to, because it's it really is the same old adage common sense applied in a different context. That's really what it is.

Speaker 3:

And I think it makes it a lot easier to understand. You know, when you're in an event or a party, do you really want to make those comments? You know have you thought about what you're going to say and you know, sometimes some forethought can really help you. It can really help you with doing those things and I think that you know if you think, if you tell clients that, and then that's.

Speaker 3:

But you you need to think about reputation of lawyers are limited in certain states what they can say online, and so you really have to be careful about that new york, for example, you can't do pretty much anything is considered an advertise, Whereas in California and other states some of the lawyers and I'm not intended to disparage anyone they're kind of more like used car ads Come on down Come on down to the lot and we'll show you what's here. We had one I think he was 70 the age called pussy cow. He was, he was. He was a southern california regional car salesman. Everybody knew who cal was yes, yes, the tall guy.

Speaker 2:

Did he wear a cowboy hat, or?

Speaker 3:

something. Yep, and he had a few hats and all the everything. Yeah, see, he branded, early branding, early branding, and so everybody knew who he was. So he, he was very clear about his image and how he did this and all these kinds of things, and but you have to think about in the long term how this works and you know what you want to say. And I think, thinking ahead of that time, but you have to be thinking about, even if you're not thinking about your brand, say, your brand is your business and your reputation. Is that really necessary to discuss that here? Yeah, I mean again common sense.

Speaker 3:

You know, is it just use some common sense about the whole thing it is and don't get pulled into the frenzy. And you know you can pivot or you can ask a question and say you know I consider that private. It's okay to say you know I consider that private. It's okay to say I sort of consider that private what my political beliefs are. You know I. And there's a way to say that if there are certain topics and when we prep people for interview you know, we discuss with we, we work with clients before they get interviewed for magazines and before

Speaker 3:

they go on tv and before they go on podcasts and before they do their promoing a movie or tv series and we talked to them about what, what you're going to see. You know, whatever project they're working on, they have things they're going to discuss, but if it goes off topic, what are you going to discuss? And some of them they are useful They'll say, you know, before you talk to them, these are some things we want to put in the group. You're not to discuss with them, right?

Speaker 2:

And then prepping your client to know how to pivot away from that and not look like a jerk yeah, exactly, and you can say look, that's an unfortunate situation, understand that's ongoing.

Speaker 3:

There's a way to say that, so you don't get into these things like how do you feel about Armie Hammer? How do you feel about the Menendez brothers? Who do you think? How do you feel about the menendez brothers? You know what do you think? Who do you think? You know, how do you? How do you think such and such did in the election polls?

Speaker 3:

you know those things that people are not going to want to talk about yeah, if you're noticing that some of the artists are, for example, and other people are high profile are taking sides in some of these things and they may want to do that, but maybe your show isn't the place to do that, or don't put them in that type of situation certainly not, if you want them back and certainly not. If you want to and it's what I do also tell them is you know whoever's interviewing you has a vested interest, unless they're just trying to do an expose, because if they know they put you through that, other people aren't going to want to come yeah, that's right, they're not going to want to do that Wow.

Speaker 2:

This has been really, really interesting. I've enjoyed having this conversation. I know our listeners may want to reach out to you. Is there a best place that they a better place where they can reach you and connect with you?

Speaker 3:

Sure, my email is Hillary at Hillary Trial Lawyers and Hillary with two L's, and you can also take a look at our website, which is Hillary Trial Lawyers, and we're in California, new York, and we also handle matters in DC and Montana. So we're happy to hear from you and be of any assistance we can. And, marilyn, I really had a nice time this morning.

Speaker 2:

Thank you and happy Halloween to you Absolutely, and we'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes. So, yeah, it's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed having this conversation about AI as well as social media. This is a very timely, I believe, so thank you so much for your time. I'll speak to you.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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