Leadership In Law Podcast

30 Respect, Education, & Integrity for Your Firm with Craig Greening

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 30

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Join us as we explore the fascinating journey of Craig Greening, a prominent criminal defense attorney who transitioned from the world of mechanical engineering to founding the esteemed Greening Law Group. Discover how Craig's unique science-based approach challenges forensic evidence, ensuring justice, particularly in DUI and drug-related cases. With a background as a former prosecutor, Craig now passionately defends constitutional rights, focusing on fair treatment for all, especially underserved communities.

Empathy is not just a buzzword for Craig; it's a vital part of his practice. We discuss the significance of empathy in legal representation and how it shapes effective courtroom strategies. Craig shares heartwarming stories about his former clients, illustrating the power of understanding and support. From mentoring young lawyers to fostering a positive firm culture, Craig reveals how these elements contribute to client success beyond courtroom victories, transforming challenges into opportunities for growth.

Unpacking the complexities of high-profile legal defenses, we delve into the intricacies of jury selection and the importance of quality representation for marginalized communities. Craig sheds light on nurturing a positive workplace aligned with core values, highlighting the challenges of building a strong team. He also shares the behind-the-scenes process of writing a legal handbook that serves as a strategic tool in the legal field. This episode wraps up with a reminder of the supportive community listeners are part of, encouraging them to connect and access valuable resources through our platform.

Reach Craig here:
https://www.instagram.com/greeninglaw?igsh=MWJtcXE2aDVhZnp2YQ==
https://www.facebook.com/greeninglaw?mibextid=LQQJ4d


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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, craig Greening, to the show today. Craig is the founder of Greening Law Group, a seven-time award-winning super lawyer and an author. He's a seasoned criminal defense attorney and certified forensic lawyer scientist. He is committed to fiercely protecting constitutional rights and ensuring that every individual receives fair treatment under the law. With a science-based background, craig brings an analytical and innovative approach to legal defense, empowering his clients with cutting-edge strategies and expert advocacy. His commitment to empathy, precision and defending those who are often overlooked by the justice system has solidified his position as a thought leader in the legal community. I'm excited to have you here, craig Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Great to be here.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, I'm excited. I love the science, space, so tell me how you got started.

Speaker 3:

Well, years ago I went to college and I was a mechanical engineering major. I went to law school to be a patent lawyer and then I realized how boring that was going to be, so I kind of transitioned out into the criminal world. It started out as a prosecutor for about four years, prosecuting everything from DWIs all the way up to murders, and then after about four years of that, I decided that I wanted to help people. I felt like when I was a prosecutor I was just putting people in prison all the time and I stepped into the criminal defense arena because I wanted to really help people. And it's really been a great 20 years as a criminal defense attorney.

Speaker 2:

Wow, Okay, Excellent. Well, that's an interesting. So you played both sides of the courtroom. How do you feel? How does your science-based background help you with the criminal defense?

Speaker 3:

Well, when you're talking about forensic science, it could be anything from a blood test in a DWI case, dna, it could be whether something's actually cocaine or not. Sometimes that becomes a question because there's a lot of drugs out there. So I think having that analytical background, that logical background as a lawyer, really, really helps break down the key science and understand the science. You know, as an engineer I had to take chemistry, physics, very high level classes, and so I think that prepares you for the forensic science world.

Speaker 2:

And would this be part of the innovative strategies you use in DUI defense? How does that play?

Speaker 3:

You know, a lot of lawyers don't even subpoena the records from the lab to see if they calibrated things properly, if the system was actually lab, to see if they calibrated things properly, if the system was actually working properly, if things were being measured properly. And so we've won many DWI cases by challenging the blood test itself oh wow and finding that the labs made errors. Many times they do make errors. We won cases where there was 0.23 blood, where we got not guilty by the jury because the jury just didn't believe in the science. The science is good. They just didn't believe how the science was applied by the actual analyst.

Speaker 2:

Okay, great, so the calibration of the machines before they run the test, so wow, okay, that's quite interesting. And so you really mentioned in your bio the constitutional rights, so you fill underserved communities. How do you? What is the role of constitutional rights play when it comes to criminal defense?

Speaker 3:

Well, many of the Bill of Rights are criminal in nature. To protect our personal rights so that we don't have government intrusion. I get asked all the time how do you go to sleep at night representing guilty people? And I was like I go to sleep just fine, because I know I'm protecting the constitution, protecting the integrity of the constitution, and that's what I'm here to do is defend that. What really keeps me up at night is innocent people. If I think my client's innocent, that will keep me up. That'll make me wake up at three in the morning and not be able to go back to sleep. So that's really when I have a difficult time sleeping.

Speaker 3:

No-transcript open for that. I also have brought in younger lawyers into my firm and trained them. A lot of them are out on their own now with starting their own firms. So that's where I really take pride in being able to help the next generation of lawyers. I have a lawyer named Ben Koshy that yesterday got a not guilty verdict and he's only been with us less than a year. So he's doing really well and I'm glad to be able to mentor him.

Speaker 2:

And do you suggest, are there any types of training or educational courses that you'd suggest and help to teach you the scientific part of it? I mean, obviously you have a degree, but there's got to be something that you can, that you refer to someone to learn.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so coming right out of law school you're, you don't know anything, you just know how to be a good law student. So I do recommend there's there's a lot of classes out there. There's Axion labs in Chicago that does a great job with drug and blood or drug and alcohol blood, dwi cases. They help you learn the science. You actually get to use the instruments and test blood yourself. And there's the. They also do solid drug testing classes so you'd learn how to test actual cocaine yourself. Well, but we don't actually test real cocaine because we're not certified that. But you know what. You get the gist of that.

Speaker 3:

But I also tell people to seek out university professors and they can be a wealth of resources. We reached out one time to a professor up in Boise State who was a DNA expert. You might remember the Amanda Knox case from back in the day when he exonerated her. So we reached out to him and he set up a whole week-long class where we went in and learned how to do serology and extract DNA and then determine whether the probability whether the DNA was from a known individual, and so that can help you when you go into trial if you know as much or more than the expert that's testifying. Number one it gives you a strong defense if there's something that went wrong. And number two, it really scares the expert when they know you know more than them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they don't do that. Try to talk too much so you confuse the jury, Exactly. So what advice would you give young attorneys coming out just starting out in criminal defense? Would you suggest going and getting these types of training so you know the science? And what other advice would you give them?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, invest in yourself, invest in your future and get that education. Not every like NACDL and TCDLA in Texas. These are good organizations that can help give you the training, but also reach out and do something outside the box. I never hesitate to reach out to a professor we have Texas A&M University, where our main office location is at and I won't hesitate to call a professor and say, hey, can you teach me this? Because this is coming up in a future trial of mine. So use your resources and think outside the box.

Speaker 3:

I think that's what young people should do. But also I think the way to become a great criminal defense lawyer as a young person is to get in the courtroom as many times as you can. Get comfortable in front of the jury, in front of the judge. Be comfortable in the courtroom. When I stepped into the courtroom, like yesterday, I stepped into the courtroom in a county about two hours from here and my client said man, when you went in that courtroom, you just acted like you owned the place and you demanded respect. And people responded to that. And that's because I've been doing it for 24 years and I practice it over and over again I'm very confident when I go into a courtroom.

Speaker 2:

That's great advice. Yeah, owning the room. You know my grandmother used to say walk into a room like you meant to be there.

Speaker 4:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

A lot of that comes, that comes through in with you, in your attitude and your, your stance and that whole thing, and it just builds that confidence. I I absolutely agree in practice.

Speaker 3:

Something helps me, six foot six tall, so there you have it.

Speaker 2:

I'm nowhere near that, so you're an impressive figure when you walk in anyway, very cool. So let's talk about you. Talk about using empathy in your client representation. So I love the way that you're approaching your clients as you're defending the Constitution and helping them. How do you do that in an empathetic way?

Speaker 3:

I think this all stems from my brother, who actually passed away several years ago, but he was born handicapped and also had a mental disability. Passed away several years ago, but he was born handicapped and also had a mental disability, and I remember people were very cruel to him growing up and and it really hurt me, but I realized what the problem was is people couldn't see themselves in his shoes. They couldn't imagine themselves being paralyzed and having mental disabilities, and so they just didn't understand that we're empathetic towards him. And so I kind of translate that to my practice. Every morning when I wake up, I think about my brother and what he meant to me, but what, what he really needed from people to for him to feel loved.

Speaker 3:

And so in my practice I try to translate that to the, to my practice, to where I I think about, okay, this person's not perfect, but I need to be empathetic to them. I need to put myself in their shoes and find out what are they feeling at the time, because a lot of criminal defense work deals with mental health issues and we're in a college town, so we deal with a lot of young people who have not fully developed yet, especially young men, and so they're making bad choices, but that doesn't mean that they still can't have a good future. I don't want to let one moment define them in their life. So I think getting in their shoes and saying, hey, what is the real issue that's driving this behavior A lot of times it's substance abuse or mental health issues and then trying to find the resources for them to overcome that. But you can only do that by stepping into their shoes and making them feel comfortable, that you feel empathetic towards them.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, and I'm sure it sounds like you're with the young attorneys that you have come through your firm. You're building a sense of culture in you know the way that you represent your clients and work with the cases and you're instituting that with across the board for your company culture, right?

Speaker 3:

That's correct. Yeah, we have core values, and one of our core values is respect, and that's respect for each other, respect for yourself and respect for our clients. The other thing that we always say in our office is we win where it matters in the courtroom and in life and we really stress that life part of it. That it's okay to win in the courtroom, that's great. That's what we do this for. We want to win, but we also want our clients to win in life, and if we win in the courtroom and they don't win in life, then we haven't done our duty.

Speaker 2:

Right, and so you're basically what I would consider like a full service criminal defense, in that you help support the clients, get them the resources they need. If it's counseling or that sort of thing. There's being in a college town, there'll be a lot of associations or organizations that can help with those things.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think the thing that makes me feel the best like I had a client the other day. I represented him when he was 14 years old. He was a juvenile in trouble a lot and I found out the other day that he's 24 years old now and he's getting a master's degree. But what he remembered about me is not what I did in the courtroom for him. He remembered that every Wednesday I'd go play basketball with him oh wow. And that he said the reason why he was messing up back when he was 14 was because he didn't have a strong male role model. And then I provided that for him.

Speaker 3:

And that has nothing to do with being a lawyer, that's just being a person that's empathetic towards another person and wants to help them achieve something strong in their future. So you know he a lot of my clients. 10 years later, I'll say you know you were right when you first sat me down, when we had our first consultation. You were right that we, that I was going to look back at this thing 10 years from now and say this is the best thing that ever happened to me, because it helped save my life.

Speaker 1:

It helped me in my life.

Speaker 3:

And I always tell my clients that 10 years from now you're going to say this is the best thing that ever happened to me and that you're going to look back and say I'm glad that I got arrested for that crime.

Speaker 2:

Attorney. You make an attorney point.

Speaker 3:

Yes, you know you got to make it a positive. You can't just dwell on the negative. Yeah, can't just dwell on the negative.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Right, that's that's incredible. That to be able to, to know that you've done that for people and in 10 years, master's degree, that's pretty amazing. They turn around for you know, that's that's incredible.

Speaker 3:

And all it takes is is attention and you know, carry yeah, and just playing basketball with them, that's. That's what did it for them. And just being there to give them advice on how to how to be successful in life did it for them.

Speaker 2:

And just being there to give them advice on how to how to be successful in life, and just somebody to listen and talk. Yeah, that's, that's fantastic.

Speaker 3:

So then tell me what does it take to run a successful defense firm with integrity? Well, integrity I mean obviously our ethics, drive and tech. You know we have to have integrity in our practice but I think everything is you know your reputation is is important. Think everything is. You know your reputation is important and so you know some other law firms will say negative things about other lawyers. They may even say negative things about me to try to get the case. We never do that. That's a no-no in our firm. We don't say anything negative about other lawyers that we want to keep our integrity. We don't say anything negative about other lawyers that we want to keep our integrity. We don't say things bad about our clients in public. I mean, integrity is very important and you practice your law with professionalism and so even if I think another lawyer is bad, I will never tell anybody that because it's just not professional.

Speaker 2:

Right, Right. No, I absolutely agree with that. It's just. It's like having the little gossip corner. It does no one any good, so agreed. What are the biggest legal challenges that you're seeing these days in the criminal justice system?

Speaker 3:

I think you know the cell phones are really an evolving issue in the law because if you think about your cell phone, remember 30 years ago you would keep everything in your safe your bank documents all your private things, things you didn't want anybody to have access to you.

Speaker 3:

Keep them in your safe, and we always think about our home as being a very private place, and that's why you have to get a search warrant whenever you want to search a home. Well, I believe that the phones nowadays are our new safe at our home and what we're seeing is police just because your client committed some kind of crime or allegedly committed some kind of crime. They're taking phones away all the time without any probable cause that there's any information inside the phone, and so we've been challenging that a lot. There's also these geofencing things that are going on. Now that I got a January 6th case where my client took a tour of the Capitol, and so we're trying that in December, and the reason how they found him, that he was there, is they get a geofencing warrant, and what these things are is they know that a crime committed, so we know people entered the Capitol, right.

Speaker 3:

Some of them legally and so they get a search warrant for the phone carrier to tell us, well, who all was in that whole area that entire day. So it's almost like a reverse search warrant where you're violating all these people's rights just to try to find out that they committed the crime. So we're going to be challenging that and there's some good case law that's come out of the Fifth Circuit over in New Orleans that's helping us through that. But yeah, the cell phone things are very challenging right now. I think it's trying to find how much intrusion that the police can have in your life.

Speaker 2:

That's incredible. I didn't realize they were geofencing, getting that to find out who was there, because I remember, after it happened, this big outpouring on the line to help identify these people and doing facial recognition, and I didn't realize they were doing the cell phones. But there's so many of them that were recording what they were doing and that's prevalent. I mean you can't do anything anymore without somebody around you having a video camera going or video going.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we've got a lot of those videos from the government, that's for sure. Wow, that's so incredible.

Speaker 2:

So it's January 6th. More of a high profile case. What are the challenges in defending something like that?

Speaker 3:

and just look at the facts of the case, because I think I think we have some really good issues and factual issues in the case for what he's actually charged with. But just trying to get a jury of that, that area is going to be difficult, I believe.

Speaker 2:

And do you have? Do you have a choice of you going in front of a jury or not, or just going in front of the judge? We could go in front of the judge.

Speaker 3:

That's something that we may on. We're still kind of working through the process, probably have to decide that within the next couple of weeks. But yeah, I mean you could go in front of the judge. But you also want to look at a judge's track record to see what they've been doing in some of our cases and sometimes that can drive your decision.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so let's talk about you. Help marginalized communities. How can other lawyers help protect marginalized communities in the justice system?

Speaker 3:

Well, I think it's important to have some lawyers in your firm doing court appointed work, and so there's always a stigma on court appointed attorneys or public defenders that they're not, they don't care, they're not doing a great job, that kind of thing. If a lawyer from my firm is on a court appointed list, they're going to be one of the top lawyers in that area, and so when you get court appointed by one of my lawyers, you can be sure you're going to have just great representation, as if you were spending thousands of dollars, and so I think that's the way you can give back to marginalized communities that they can't afford lawyers. So we will always have court appointed lawyers within our firm. Normally we put the younger or junior lawyers on a court appointed list and then obviously I'm guiding them and training them and helping them with every case that they're handling, so they get superior representation.

Speaker 2:

Plus, they get practice. That's where you're talking about getting the court as many times as you can.

Speaker 3:

Correct, yeah, and some of the best cases are court appointed cases. You get some interesting facts and they can be a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:

It sounds like you have a great workplace that really nurtures your team and the culture to be better people, better humans, as well as better attorneys.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the most difficult thing about owning a firm is getting the right people in the right spots, and anybody that's toxic or doesn't fit into your core values, I mean you have to get rid of them quick. You can't let them sit there and f and I've learned that over the years. One thing I've learned is I can't hire. I'm terrible at hiring. So I have an operations director. She handles all that, the hiring now, and we have like a hiring funnel so you have to qualify first, then you have to do a project associated with your job and then we do psychological testing and, like we did print and Colby, so you go through this whole funnel. So there's always like a lot of people up top and then it's funnels down Like wow, like a hundred applicants, and they'll come down to like five Right, because we've weeded people out along the way.

Speaker 2:

We have a similar process because if they don't follow instructions, there's no need to talk to them.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because if they don't follow the instructions, there's no need to talk to them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the harder, slower and far faster. You know they're putting their best hat on for you in the interview process, so if they can't even do that, then it's going to be bad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I agree. I ended up hiring two team members out of 163 applicants and I only spoke to those two because the others just didn't follow them. Spoke to those two because the others just didn't follow them, and it's simple instructions. It's crazy how people are. They just don't do that. Do what is needed. And I understand you have a book, so let's chat a little bit about your book and then we'll make sure we'll put a link to it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that was a tough write. It was basically. I got asked by LexisNexis to write the Fifth Circuit Criminal Handbook, which is used by judges and prosecutors, assistant US attorneys and criminal defense attorneys, so it's a very neutral book. It's not. It's just stating the law. This is what the law is, but the problem and you know, when you write legal stuff, you have to put a site on every sentence that you write. So I had 500 pages that I wrote, took me about eight months to write it back in 2019, and so I've been updating it ever since I think the two. I'm about to finish the 2025 version here in the next month, wow, and so it's just a great resource you can throw in your briefcase. It's paperback and I use it all the time myself. It's kind of funny, though, to pull it out in front of the assistant US attorneys and you know we're researching something together and they say wait a second, that's your book, and so it's kind of a. It's kind of a good power move sometimes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, a little flex.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So it's the fifth circuit, but would it be valid or at least helpful for people outside of that area?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean some of the case laws, the Supreme Court case laws, like so now I got to go back and change some of the felon or the detective order person in possession of a firearm stuff because fifth circuit had overturned that statute. So now we got to go back and I got to fix all that. But there's some other circuits in there, but really it's meant for people that practice in the Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, louisiana and Mississippi.

Speaker 2:

Okay, excellent, well, good, I want to make sure that we put a link to your book, just so that people can reach that and get that. What's the biggest takeaway you'd like our listeners to have taken away from this episode?

Speaker 3:

I'd like the questions. This was a lot of fun. I really think that criminal defense lawyers need to think about empathy. We got that across today because I feel like we get in that grind sometimes and we're trying to make money and some of our clients are just jerks too. So it's hard to be empathetic to a jerk, but you still have to hang in there because they're your client and you got to understand they're going through the worst and they want to, they want to blame somebody and so. So a lot of times the lawyer is an easy target but just, you know, I've had a lot of clients that have been by all. Just my advice is just stick with it and understand why you're doing what you're doing, and sometimes you know people aren't the person you really see in front of you that they're. They're just acting out of emotion.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think you're right. I mean, if you're calling an attorney, there's something wrong or there's something going to be wrong. So you know, this is one of the worst times, but I do, like the, you know, always use respect the culture that you put out there. So, no matter what practice area you're working in, having respect first and foremost for yourself, your coworkers and the client, and I love that part of the culture that you're talking about.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, respect is very important to me in our culture. At the firm we had a girl that had been with me for a few years that made fun of somebody because of their disability in our firm and I fired her right away. I don't tolerate disrespect.

Speaker 2:

No, that's no. And when it comes out in ways like that, what were you missing? What was she covering up other than that? So, yeah, I agree, this has been very interesting. I love your idea. I love the way you're training, learning and reaching out to college professors, the things that you're doing just building up, and the fact that you're bringing in attorneys and sending them on their way after the training. So it sounds like you have a great firm. I know online listeners might want to catch up with you or connect with you. Where would be the best place to connect with you?

Speaker 3:

Probably on any of our social. We're on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, so just you know it's a greening law, is normally the tag for the firm, and then I'm I'm normally under Craig greening, so I'll make sure we'll put that in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

Craig, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been exciting and interesting and I just love that you took the time out of your day to talk with us.

Speaker 3:

Great Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely. Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about, and if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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