Leadership In Law Podcast

31 Anti-Money Laundering Networking & LinkedIn with Ross Delston

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 31

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Discover the captivating journey of Ross Delston, an independent American attorney, as he shares his unexpected entry into the world of anti-money laundering (AML) and countering the financing of terrorism (CFT) with us on the Leadership in Law podcast. After a serendipitous assignment with the International Monetary Fund in the early 2000s, Ross's passion for tackling financial crime was ignited, leading him to become a key figure in global financial regulation. Together, we explore the evolving link between money laundering and terrorism financing, especially after 9/11, and how these issues have reshaped the legal landscape over the years.

Nowadays, mastering the art of networking is crucial for professional success. That’s why Ross and I delve into effective strategies for client development, particularly through the strategic use of LinkedIn. We share real-life success stories and practical tips on how personalized outreach and detailed content sharing can enhance your professional visibility and credibility. From making your contact information easily accessible to crafting a standout LinkedIn profile, we offer valuable insights for building and sustaining a thriving practice.

Lastly, we emphasize the importance of community among law firm owners and staying connected with a network of supportive professionals. By subscribing to our podcast and visiting our website, you can access a wealth of resources designed to help navigate the challenges of law firm ownership. As we share personal anecdotes and emphasize LinkedIn's role in bridging global professional connections, we invite you to engage with us and continue the conversation. Join us for an episode filled with actionable insights and stories that inspire leadership in law.

Reach Ross here:
www.delston.com
linkedin.com/in/rossdelston 


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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, ross Delstern, to the show today. Ross is an independent American attorney, expert witness and former banking regulator with the FDIC, who has specialized in anti-money laundering issues since July of 2000. Ross has participated in the monitorships of AIG and BNP Paribas and has been named as an expert witness on AML issues in 24 civil and criminal cases in the US and Canada. Ross has also been a consultant to the IMF since 1997 and has participated in nine AML CFT assessments at offshore financial centers, including Jersey, bermuda and the St Vincent Grading. Ross is a frequent speaker on AML-CFT and banking topics, including presentations to the central banks of China, ghana, india and South Africa, and has been quoted in the New York Times, times of London, wall Street Journal, washington Post, the Nikkei Japan and Reuters. He has practiced law for almost 50 years and received his law degree from George Washington University Law School before you were born. I'm excited to have you here, ross Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Well, I used to say that a lot before you were born, but it turned out that that's not a winning phrase. I said to one young woman once you just graduated from law school I have ties older than you and maybe it's time to get new ties. Oh, that's hilarious. Great response.

Speaker 2:

That is. That's excellent. Well, gosh, I'm excited to have you here, so tell us a little bit about how you got started in anti-money laundering.

Speaker 3:

Encountering the financing of terrorism CFT. Yes, it was total serendipity. I'm a great believer in serendipity. Serendipity means you have to go out looking for something or doing something but then find something unexpected that you weren't looking for. So in this case, I was doing consulting work for the International Monetary Fund IMF in Washington. In those days I lived in Washington no longer I live in St Louis and we started this podcast at 11 o'clock Central Time on the 11th day of the 11th month of the year. So I'm taking that as a good omen.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

So I was doing consulting work for them in the banking field. Summer of 2000,. They come to me and say how do you feel about giving a lecture on anti-money laundering? This was to a group in Vienna, austria. I was already doing lectures on banking with them. It was a one week where the IMF tries to bring central bank lawyers up to speed, mostly from transition countries, developing countries, former Soviet countries. So I started looking into anti-money laundering, found it to be fascinating. Long story short, went back to the IMF and said I will do this without charge if you will assign me to this issue. And they said no, you will not.

Speaker 2:

Really.

Speaker 3:

Without charge, we will pay you Okay. And at that point, pay you Okay. And at that point they had been asked by an international body of wise heads. Of course, all men who at the time thought that the next financial crisis which turned out to be in 2008, but this was the year 2000, they thought the next financial crisis would come from offshore financial centers, ofcs. It turned out that was wrong, but that got the IMF and the World Bank into the anti-money laundering business. A year later, the events of 9-11 in New York City horrific events with, of course, buildings being hit by airplanes, and that supercharged the field Not something I would have predicted at the time, because that's a terrorist act. I was dealing with money laundering, but the two are closely linked.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

The things you do to hide money for money laundering work really well to hide money for financing of terrorism. They're the same things Disguising payments, saying that a payment is to pay for goods and services. It's not, it's just a way of getting money over to somebody, and that's geez. That was 24 years ago. I was put in charge of the IMF's activities for a brief time because they thought they could use an outside consultant. I still think this is funny. 24 years ago they thought they didn't need a staff person to do it because it was temporary. Well, 24 years later, the largest unit of the legal department of the IMF is the anti-money laundering unit.

Speaker 2:

Wow, Now we see that in the news. Always things about anti-money laundering in the news. It's interesting, why is so much of it going on?

Speaker 3:

Because so much of it always went on. But we've discovered that maybe we should all pay more attention to it and I think that's a good idea, even if I wasn't in this field. And we also discovered in the US that the penalties for money laundering are greater. The criminal penalties are greater often than the underlying crime. So that gives prosecutors an incentive to add a charge of money laundering. That works on the positive side for prosecutors.

Speaker 3:

On the negative side, underlying crimes, predicate crimes, are called in the US. They're called specified unlawful activities a very tortured phrase because the US has to be different Unlawful activities a very tortured phrase because the US has to be different, and often to its detriment, to our mutual detriment. So those predicate crimes are a lot more interesting. Selling drugs, you can talk to a jury about it, you can get the judge's attention. Money laundering is a schnooter. It's paper, it's flows of money Boring, really difficult to get across. So that's the negative about bringing an AML case or a financing of terrorism case. I have one of those right now. Same issues as with money laundering, very complicated in terms of money flows, and yet how do you get anybody's attention to pay attention enough to reach the right judgment?

Speaker 2:

Now is this more? Is it federal when you talk about going into the court?

Speaker 3:

So whose attention do you need? Well, you need a jury. In the US, almost all of these trials are jury trials, both civil and criminal. Okay, that's a jury of I don't want to say ordinary or normal people, but not lawyers. Typically, once in a while, they creep onto a panel. I've been struck from every panel I've ever been called on and they're like everybody else. They are not experts in this field. They know most people know what money laundering is, which I found fascinating.

Speaker 3:

I was asked to do a short presentation at the Jackie the Jackie Onassis High School. Jackie Onassis was married to President John F Kennedy. After his assassination married one of the wealthiest men in the world, aristotle Onassis, a Greek shipping tycoon. So the high school was named after her. And it was a bunch of kids in Manhattan who were interested in professions, trades, working in some sort of business. So I stripped in these kids and they were kids even though at my age most people are kids, including you, marilyn and I said to them so what's money laundering? And one kid raises his hand and says that's when you take the money you got from a crime and you move it around. Yes, that's exactly what it is.

Speaker 2:

I think we've seen a lot of that on different TV shows. That's why you know it's coming into the vernacular. We get it.

Speaker 3:

So much so that just about every crime show has a money laundry angle to it, which is really funny. Usually they get it wrong, Usually they have to dramatize it and it's just. No, that's not the way things happen. Ozark, which is a place in Missouri where I am now the main criminal character to the money launderer goes to various businesses and says I want to buy your business. I mean no, no, that's not the way it's done.

Speaker 2:

That seemed an oversimplification of it when I was watching it Exactly.

Speaker 3:

And it was entertaining mildly, but not that entertaining either. It's hard to dramatize this kind of stuff. It's, it's, it's banking, it's, it's almost always involves a bank. It's hard to shift money around without a bank.

Speaker 2:

But we've got some, some stock gets in place to be able to to kind of get an idea that something's happening. And then do you have like forensic accounting to go in and look at accounts before you know when you have an indication.

Speaker 3:

That's not my main activity, but as an expert witness I do have a team of people who look at money flows. But if it's a matter of tracing, these are money flows where we know where the money went. It's a matter of tracing. That's another group of people forensic accountants, that sort of thing. They do that. I don't do that. In almost all of my cases the perpetrator of the fraud, the crime, has been caught. They're often in prison, so you don't have to try to figure out who it is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you're just, you've already got them. You just have to prove your case at this point.

Speaker 3:

Prove that in most of the cases that I involve in am involved in, it's a group of people who have been injured by a fraud who are suing a large financial institution and saying that financial institution should have noticed what was going on. Institution should have noticed what was going on. And of course the bank says or broker-dealer says well, that's not our job, we're not law enforcement, and there's a back and forth about that. Us laws, international laws, domestic laws, even in places like Australia, are very tough about money laundering.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and that ties into the terrorist funding.

Speaker 3:

Same same same issues. Yes, If you're doing moving money for some illicit purpose and if it's terrorism, people are really on the alert. Yeah, that gets everybody's attention. Exactly, and unfortunately, terrorists don't need a lot of money. They don't need millions or hundreds of thousands. They need thousands of dollars to do terrible things, Right.

Speaker 2:

So you've been doing this for 24 years. You've got a big staff behind you. Now Do you feel like we're making any progress and slowing it down?

Speaker 3:

Well, a big staff is. I do have people helping me on these cases, but progress, no, it's about the same amount of progress we're making on climate change. You have the deniers saying this stuff's not that important. You have the people saying we have to do something. It's a huge problem and the way I describe our efforts and I guess this justifies what I do it's a little bit like going to a hospital.

Speaker 3:

If you knew the extent of the activities of the hospital to prevent, you would find that staggering. They're constantly cleaning, lopping, sweeping, they're paying attention to every surface. The towels, when they're delivered, are covered with a sheet to protect them from dust. But, as most people don't know but I have the unfortunate ability to read a hospital's internal newsletter many years ago and my wife was an adjunct lecturer at a hospital in Washington they are in this battle against staphylococcus. Now it's worse things. That was 30 years ago. Now it's worse. It's MRSA. It's things we don't have antibiotics for. But you keep cleaning, even though you know you're not going to vanquish these infectious diseases. Same with money laundering and other types of crime. You keep doing it because, like the hospital, if you don't do it, not only does it get worse. It makes the situation unlivable. Our job is for the cleaners makes the situation unlivable.

Speaker 2:

Our job is for the cleaners. Wow, that actually puts it in perspective. That makes sense. So it sounds like it's really interesting the cases that you're going through what is one of the strangest ones that you've helped work in?

Speaker 3:

Well, I can talk a little bit about the victims of Jeffrey Epstein versus Deutsche Bank. That was called Doe versus Deutsche Bank. Deutsche Bank, a large international bank In this case it was in New York.

Speaker 3:

Jeffrey Epstein, the sex trafficker, slash financier, and everything, almost everything I learned about the case was public, eventually became public or was already public, but it's strange that Epstein didn't feel any compunction, any need to hide what he was doing from the bank, and one of the things that was reported in a major regulatory order so again it's public is that one of Mr Epstein's lawyers personal lawyers would go to the bank every week or two and pick up cash to the tune of $200,000 a year. When the bank asked what it was for, they were told travel and other expenses related to travel like tips 200 pounds of water.

Speaker 3:

A lot of money and he traveled mostly on private jets. So I mean, I don't know where the tips come in. He often visited his own homes in various parts of the world various parts of the US, the Caribbean and Europe. You don't tip your own staff in cash. You can certainly give them a bonus, but obviously to pay girls and eventually women as they grew older, he would continue paying.

Speaker 2:

So the bank knew that something fishy was going on.

Speaker 3:

What they knew isn't clear, but the consent order, the regulatory order, was very clear that this was something they should have followed up. I can't say what they knew. What's inside somebody's head? The older I get, the more I realize you don't want to know what's inside people's head.

Speaker 2:

No, I think I agree with you on that. Yeah, I think I agree with you on that. So, with you working with all these different areas in the IMF and stuff, how do is that? Is it a network that? How people get a hold of you and how you've grown your practice over the years?

Speaker 3:

Well, there's the obvious network that most people don't use adequately, which is LinkedIn.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

I'm sold that client development in the beginning was flying to San Francisco from Washington DC for the day to have lunch with a potential client not an actual client, potential client. You don't have to do that anymore. You have Zoom, you have other video apps, Right, and you have LinkedIn to bring you to the attention of potential clients. Most lawyers, most consultants don't use it. They don't use it fully or adequately.

Speaker 2:

I agree with that.

Speaker 3:

So that's frustrating because sometimes I were advising people who are, in theory, like competition, but they're starting out and I want to be helpful. And then, after I did this a while, I realized they just weren't going to spend the time. Ross, right now I have close to 18,000 connections on LinkedIn. Well, I had my wife, and years ago when I started doing this, some of my lawyer friends thought I was certifiably insane for spending so much time on LinkedIn. My wife is a psychotherapist, so when she says certifiably insane, that's meaningful.

Speaker 3:

And then I got my first client through LinkedIn Not my first client, but my first client through LinkedIn and it turned out to be a blockbuster. It was the BNP Paribas monitorship and it was all because I got a notice that somebody had been promoted I didn't know who she was, which he was, somehow in my network. I sent a congratulatory message through LinkedIn, not the automated ones, but an actual message that said we don't know each other, we're overlapping, and here's something interesting that I was doing. Well, that interesting thing at the time turned out to be a major issue for her in the monitorship.

Speaker 2:

So like, boom, let's talk, just because you took time to actually share something that could have been relevant to her, instead of just taking the automated click here to send a happy birthday thing or congratulations.

Speaker 3:

One sentence I can tell you what I said because I still remember it. It was some words to the effect that the banking regulators are paranoid about trade finance and that I learned this in working with a major bank client who was dealing with them on this issue. Basically, one sentence Wow, now I didn't know that that would be of interest to her. I didn't even know she was working on the monitorship. She wasn't the monitor, turned out, she was staffing the monitorship. She was the head of a major consulting firm but staffing the monitorship and working on it herself. You don't know. Again, you just don't know. But you have to reach out in a personal way. Yeah, all of those lunches. I can't say that they were useless.

Speaker 3:

This was doing banking law for them and I met them through a face-to-face lunch at which the lawyer one of the lawyers who hired me made fun of me. He's still a friend. Made fun of me for ordering a Perrier sparkling water. He said you mean American Club soda. I said good enough for you and I said you know, you're right, it's the same thing. So for years I switched to club soda. He became a client later after I left a large law firm. So I went into the law firm, of course, not thinking I was the kind of person who would become a partner, and I was right. But it was a fascinating experience that taught me all about client development. Most people don't get that opportunity or they say I don't want to work there because it's crazy hours. My kids called it not Jones Day, but they called it Jones Day at night Because it's always there. So the moral of the story is sometimes you do things that aren't optimum for the experience and sometimes that experience is really crucial in fueling the rest of your career.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree because the customer learning, customer acquisition, is difficult if you've never had any sales training or experience. Now, I like the way that you're using LinkedIn. I use LinkedIn a lot for my network as well. Are you using any tools to help you outreach to your current network or automate any of the new connections?

Speaker 3:

I don't use tools exactly, but I use a technique that, again, no one else does, which is I post slide presentations, decks, powerpoints of training sessions and conferences that I've done. So when I post the whole deck, people are like, how can you do this? Somebody might steal it. So I mean, yeah, they can steal anything. It says copyright Ross Delston. But so what? People can take the ideas. But then they see the deck and they're really detailed and sometimes people remember that stuff and they certainly see my name because my bio again, people, they'll do this. My bio is on the first page of the deck. You know they they'll have a sentence or two at most and then my contact information at the end.

Speaker 3:

Don't you want people to be able to reach you? Yeah, like, I tell you that, but lawyers, in particular, consultants, often I get emails every day with people who don't have a signature block. So, like, what's your website? I've got to ask you. I want to pick up the phone and call you. I'm old, okay, sometimes I like to call people you can't. You don't have their phone number, or on LinkedIn itself has a contact. They won't put in an email address, right? I've noticed that a lot Don't make it so hard for potential clients to contact you. Well and true also the about.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's a perfect place to, instead of saying I'm this type of attorney, say what you do, make it compelling, make it a sales message. You know you've got what? Is it? 350 characters in that one spot to say yeah.

Speaker 3:

Who you are and don't waste it on entrepreneurial, self-starter and all that stuff, which I don't want to use a bad word because I don't know who your audience is. But all that stuff that people say about themselves that doesn't tell me anything about you. No, give me something specific.

Speaker 2:

Have you seen the little you know where, where they have the pronunciation by on your profile.

Speaker 3:

No.

Speaker 2:

So check out my profile when you haven't been in and you'll see the little speaker thing. So when you're adding your profile, you can do a pronunciation. Well, my name's easy to say, but you have 10 seconds to say something and I welcome them to my profile. Have them if there's any questions they have. But you can just use these little places on LinkedIn to be available. I mean, it was just such an interesting thing to do and so if Vimpe clicks on it, it's me thanking them for visiting my profile.

Speaker 3:

That is a great idea. I don't think I've ever seen it. I don't think I've even seen it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's a. If you edit your profile there's a it says beside of your name there's pronunciation and you can record it and then it'll play back and if you don't like it you can record it again. And just you know, listen to mine it's, it's super simple what you say and it's it's in that top bar, so right beside your name, which is one of the first things people see Exactly. And so you'll see that little speaker and somebody clicks on it and you can speak directly to them.

Speaker 3:

It's a great thing, but I also attach my CV 77 pages because I list all of my presentations. I list all of my presentations. I list all my press clips and publications. It's long because of my expert witness work In big cases. The other side has to look at each publication and I love the fact that they have to spend hours, maybe days, looking at all those articles and presentations because I often have links to, but then they have to read it. One other thing about LinkedIn is you can put things you've written that haven't been published. So I wrote a piece about Sam Bankman, freed and FTX just after the FTX fell apart and I thought it was pretty good. Two page and a half I posted on LinkedIn with his picture Really important to post things with pictures on LinkedIn. People like photographs because they stop and they pause and I got 34,000 views.

Speaker 2:

Did you publish that as an article or as a post?

Speaker 3:

I don't know Interesting.

Speaker 2:

There is.

Speaker 3:

It was an attachment.

Speaker 2:

Okay, yeah, it would be interesting to see what you did. But when you and I first spoke, you mentioned the fact about putting an image on every post because I've noticed so many people don't. So I'm going to say thank you for that, because I've been putting either an image or a video on everything and also posting syncing to my business page make a massive difference of the interactions that you get and also your social selling index. Have you looked at that?

Speaker 3:

I don't even know what that is. Tell me what that is.

Speaker 2:

I didn't know what it was until about a month and a half ago in sales navigator, based on your interactions, your posting, how many people are getting impressions and commenting any of that, and what you're doing on linkedin. They give you a number right zero to a hundred so any's called a social selling index.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and a 10 sales navigator. I'm not sure if there's another place on LinkedIn to be able to find it, but apparently we're, as I understand it, if you, if your number is 75 or above, the algorithm will find will actually give you more exposure. So what we want is we want our pages or our content or our like. When you're doing like, say, you post an article Inside, that there's a thing about creating a newsletter. So now last month we created our first newsletter for Law Marketing Zone and podcast. So we feature four episodes in the email and we do it as a newsletter, and then LinkedIn actually mails it to your connection, so your inbox rate is massive, right.

Speaker 2:

So when you publish an article, you can publish an article and attach stuff to it, or you can go straight to newsletter. So there's some. There's some very, very interesting changes that LinkedIn has done. And I think you've got to have a certain number. You've got more connections than I do. I'm like at 15,000. So you've got enough to be a creator. So it would be, and I do it on my personal profile, not my page, because I've got a larger network there.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So I'm excited to learn that you're using your LinkedIn a lot, and I'm sure that's how your clients find you as well. Do you have a website as well, or you just focus on LinkedIn?

Speaker 3:

I have a website but it's always out of date. I mean it doesn't have my most recent well CV, everything else is standardized, but people like to see. I like to see a website when I is standardized, but people like to see. I like to see a website when I meet somebody. So it's you kind of have to have one. The other thing I've noticed about LinkedIn and I got this from- a young.

Speaker 3:

IT person is that if you're active on LinkedIn, it raises your Google profile Right. So if somebody is looking for AML expert, I'm more likely to come up on the first or second page than I would have been if I was less active on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, linkedin has been indexed by Google a lot longer than, say, facebook. So I think that as LinkedIn keeps adding, adding features and, of course, keep growing, they're providing a lot more content to Google. So it is almost every time I Google someone's name, their LinkedIn will appear.

Speaker 3:

And LinkedIn has so many other. Here's an example I was invited to a wedding in Chennai, india. A client's daughter Got to go India. A client's daughter Gotta go. I mean not just because he was paying for me to go, but because it's Chennai and sucks South India. But while I'm there, I'd like to do a lecture somewhere.

Speaker 3:

So I select out for connections through Chennai and find a guy with a funny title at the Central Bank of India. It turns out he's the head of their college. The college that they train their people at happens to be in Chennai, even though that's not the capital. Delhi is the capital, of course. So I write to him out of the blue I'm going to be in Chennai. Can I stop by to give a lecture? I gave a topic that most people were interested in. He responded pretty quickly and said let's figure out a way to do this, and it was a lot of fun All through.

Speaker 3:

A guy I'd never met with a title I didn't understand. I knew that the Reserve Bank of India was the central bank, but that's all I knew, because I also knew that central banks in places like India have tens of thousands of employees, so I had no idea who he was. He also turned out to be a really delightful guy, so that when I complained about the young woman in the first row who asked a difficult question and I said to him it's a joke. I said I don't like her. This was after my lecture. I don't like her because she asked me a difficult question.

Speaker 3:

He knew exactly what I meant and said she's somebody I recruited personally to come here, so I know what you mean. He knew that it was a joke. It was not a real criticism. This is a strange thing about humans when you criticize someone to the person you're talking to, somebody emailing somebody, you criticize a third person. The person you're talking to pays attention. Tell me more. What is this about? If you say they did a real, if I had said that young woman in the first row asked a really good question, I was impressed. He would say yeah, yeah, but if what I said I didn't like her, oh what? And of course he was smart enough and he understood me enough to know that it was a joke.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's interesting. I love that you reached out to expand whatever you're going to do in India to make more of an impact. That's incredible.

Speaker 3:

Wherever I go, I do that wherever I go. If I'm traveling for the IMF or in the past, the World Bank, I try to set up other things. I mean now they do it routinely at the IMF, but when I first started, would you have any objection if I also did a lecture? I'm not getting paid for it, but I'm in what would be an example of a country where I did that. I've done that in so many places. Well, a funny place was Belarus. We in Belarus we're going to have this meeting with the bankers. How about we do a training session, you know, if you really want to? At the time they were a little bit resistant, but now they do it routinely. It was a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:

Wow, very cool. That's exciting. I love how much you're using your LinkedIn and what you're doing to help stop money laundering. This has been really, really interesting. So I'm guessing LinkedIn is one of the best places to our listeners can reach out and connect with you.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely Love to do it and I'm easy to find because there's only one Ross Delston on LinkedIn and there are a few other Delstons, but most of them are my daughters and there aren't a lot of Ross Delstons in the whole world. If you Google Ross Delston, you get me. Don't Google our Delston or you'll be really impressed by my publications. It's my older daughter who publishes in the cellular molecular biology field, or just Delston, because you might get my younger daughter who publishes in the philosophy field. So don't use my whole name and you'll get me on LinkedIn or Google.

Speaker 2:

Well, we'll definitely include the link in the show notes, but this has been an absolute pleasure. I've enjoyed the conversation and thank you so much for your time, ross. I really appreciate it today.

Speaker 3:

Thank you.

Speaker 4:

Marilyn, thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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