Leadership In Law Podcast

34 Practical/Tactical Stress Management with Lindsey Carnick

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 34

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Discover how small, consistent steps can lead to profound changes as we welcome Lindsey Carnick, the insightful owner of Onward Psychological Services, to the Leadership in Law podcast. From her beginnings in policy analysis to her impactful work in a maximum-security prison for juvenile males, Lindsey offers a unique perspective on the power of slow, meaningful transformation. Tune in as she unveils her approach to stress management and work-life balance with the philosophy of incremental 1% improvements, challenging the all-or-nothing mindset that often hinders genuine progress.

Explore the real-world application of self-care and mindfulness without the intimidation of perfection. We discuss the pressures professionals face, particularly in the legal field, to conform to unrealistic standards that can detract from true self-care. Lindsey shares accessible, practical tips like simple breathing exercises or muscle relaxation techniques that can be seamlessly integrated into anyone's daily routine. These manageable methods remind us that embracing self-care in small increments makes it achievable for all, fostering a healthier balance between personal and professional life.

Navigate the complexities of anxiety, catastrophic thinking, and relational uncertainties with us as we emphasize the importance of staying present and mindful. Lindsey provides strategies to question assumptions and differentiate between feelings and facts, thereby reducing unnecessary stress. We delve into how evolutionary instincts can amplify modern stressors and the significance of self-compassion and adaptability. This episode equips you with the tools to challenge your perceptions, embrace flexibility, and model a compassionate mindset—both for yourself and those around you.

Reach Lindsey here: 
https://www.instagram.com/onwardpsychservices/
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61565593732809
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsey-carnick-therapist/

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, lindsay Karnick, to the show today. Lindsay is the owner of Onward Psychological Services, a Colorado-based private practice providing psychotherapy to adult individuals and couples in Colorado, massachusetts, maryland, maine, connecticut, nevada, nebraska and Rhode Island. In addition to therapy for anxiety, depression, anger, connecticut, nevada, nebraska and Rhode Island. In addition to therapy for anxiety, depression, anger, stress and life stage changes, lindsay presents workshops nationally at conventions, retreats and other public and private events on practical tactical stress management and other concerns impacting professionals related to stress, work-life balance, effective communication and more. She's served as a counselor for a wide range of individuals from high-stress backgrounds. She's an avid reader, writer, runner and lover of cereal straight out of the box, and loves spending time with her family and friends. I'm excited to have you here, lindsay, welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, marilyn, I'm excited to be here. Good morning.

Speaker 2:

Good morning, all right, so tell us a bit about how you got started. Good morning.

Speaker 3:

All right, so tell us a bit about how you got started. How did I get started? I wanted to be a policy wonk. I wanted to be an upriver person who was involved in things at the sort of macro level that helped make things better for other people. And I still trained as a therapist in addition to training in policy analysis. Trained as a therapist in addition to training in policy analysis. And when I got out of grad school, a tempting thing was dangled in front of me called a job with benefits. It's really, really glorious and it was working at a maximum security prison for juvenile males, actually as a unit counselor, and that changed my life. That was such an incredibly important experience to me and how I understand change and people's potential for change and people's capacity not only to change for themselves, but how that change impacts their world around them and the larger world around them sort of the ripple effect. That's how I got started.

Speaker 2:

Wow, and then being able to work with them at that age, you can see really a big change in how it's going to affect their future.

Speaker 3:

You can and you can also see some very interesting, informative things about change process. I think that as adults we sort of know but tend to forget. And that is you know, marilyn, I'm sure you and I can both remember things. People told us at some younger age that took years to mean anything to us, but it was there, right, it was there, and the fact that we had all those years to sort of marinate on that, whether it was up front of mind or not up front of mind, and then one day there's this sort of tipping point where you have an accumulation of experiences where one more experience sort of has this light bulb effect and it could appear to be like rapid change, but it's really not.

Speaker 3:

It's been a slow moving boulder for many, many, many years that just hasn't crested the top of the hill and then suddenly it doesn't and you see really remarkable things. And that was one of the things that I found most important and moving about working with young people especially, some of whom were stuck in some pretty self-destructive patterns that were fed by their environments broadly construed destructive patterns that were fed by their environments broadly construed and to be able to say it's okay, one day this is going to germinate into something for you and have a sense that it would, to be able to see the wheels turning and understand that we don't have to have instant gratification change this minute in order to say something important is going on here, and I think that's still true for most of us. Right, the changes that we're looking for rarely happen like that, but that doesn't mean that we're not on a change trajectory every moment of every day.

Speaker 2:

Well, especially a lot of the processes. You know, we look at our mindset and for leadership and that sort of thing, and it is something that you're constantly trying to improve. You know, like Phil Jackson said, you know 1% better every day. Absolutely, Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

And 1% more knowledgeable every day, right. And whether you can immediately operationalize that knowledge is a different story. But you don't have to. A cumulative amalgamation of helpful knowledge is still really good whenever you do kind of crest that hill.

Speaker 2:

Exactly All data. Let's talk about your practical tactical stress management. Explain to that that's your term that you've created. What are we talking about there?

Speaker 3:

Well, I was struck by this terrific irony initially when I was working in hospitals and medical hospitals and they were building these remarkable fitness facilities in usually the basements of these hospitals gorgeous, and they would have free weights and weight machines and aerobic space, step aerobic, you know, space for yoga and step aerobics, and mirrors and all the bands and equipments and things like this, and administration seemed to be perpetually baffled that no one was rushing after their 16-hour shift to go work out Right. It seemed like a real mystery.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, spend all this money. Why are you using it?

Speaker 3:

Right, it's so pretty, it's so shiny, it's so full of great things, which was all true, and there were things on offer, there were classes, and it was weird. People didn't seem to want to spend their lunch doing it, and so that's when I really got sort of interested in this idea of how can we stop telling people to take care of themselves in ways that are already unfeasible to them it doesn't do much good.

Speaker 3:

And if you, you know, I love and I am nothing but excited for the fact that many companies now offer wellness credits to their employees as part of their health care plan, so they will reimburse a gym membership and provide subsidies for exercise things and many, many things that are good and helpful. And also, if you don't have time, you don't have time, and having a free gym membership doesn't make you have time, and that's what most people are time poor, and so, to compound insult to injury, for many people that becomes an additional source of stress. It's one more thing they're supposed to be doing. I'm supposed to be taking care of myself. I should be working out the next number of minutes a day or days a week, whatever the case may be. I should be figuring out how to fit this in, along with my family life and my hobbies and all the things that I hope to do outside of work, and it becomes an additional stressor. Taking care of yourself, stress management, burnout prevention becomes an additional stressor. This is not how this should work. I don't think so.

Speaker 3:

One of the things I've been interested in for a long time and there's a gentleman named Chade Mengtung. He was known as the Zen master of Google, a gentleman named Chade Mengtong. He was known as the Zen master of Google and he wrote a wonderful book called Search Inside Yourself that talks about his experience as the Zen master of Google in the early years and he talks about teaching useful skills to people, especially people, because he's mostly working with engineers, right? People who are not particularly keen on what a lot of sort of many of the sort of take care of yourself wellness protocols have on offer. These people want really brass tacks like I got to get back to my desk kind of stuff, and he was really good at cultivating that, and he had a particularly Eastern influence in terms of sort of mindfulness and things ways one could integrate mindfulness into one's everyday life, which has become a very big thing, right, everyday mindfulness how do you do a little bit of that?

Speaker 3:

And my experience has been that so many people are off-put by associations with self-care and mindfulness, even because it, for many people, conjures up the idea of sitting in some sort of uncomfortable position, pretending to meditate and pretending to like it and pretending it's doing something for them, and what it's doing is creating frustration because, a they don't feel like they have time. B they don't think they're doing it right. C they're supposed to feel relaxed and really what they feel is anxious about looking in the corner and they get back to what they were doing before. So the idea for me has really been to offer people brass tacks. Here are four things you can do. They will take you two minutes or less. You can microdose with these all day long. You do not need special equipment, you do not need special time carve out, you do not need a costume, you do not need a facilitator, you do not need a room with certain things in it.

Speaker 3:

Many of the accoutrements that we associate with traditional self-care activities right, and this culture promotes, unfortunately, this all or nothing, thinking about almost everything right, and that is very destructive when it comes to self-care and burnout prevention in particular, because it's very easy to get the idea that if you know that old joke, if there's no picture didn't happen kind of a thing, and in this world, like if there's not a Strava category for it, where it's not Instagram worthy, it wasn't self-care, right, you didn't have, like this ambient candle glow as you do, your arm balance on the Angel, oak and charleston, you know, and it's like you know, image of something zenful, I don't know, and so many people just throw up their hands and go like, look, I don't know what your life is like, but I know my life.

Speaker 3:

I don't have an hour for yoga. I don't have an hour for this. I don't have an hour for that. So part of what practical tactical means is pushing back on this idea that you have to have an hour for that. So part of what practical tactical means is pushing back on this idea that you have to have an Instagram worthy picture or of a category for it to have counted as something good for you, when we know, taking two minutes at a time to do some certain kinds of breathing, or two minutes to do some kind of centering activities, or two minutes to do a little bit of progressive muscle relaxation, goes miles and you don't have to go anywhere for that and you don't have to drive anywhere and you don't have to pay for anything. You can just do it pretty much anywhere, and that's what I really value talking to people about.

Speaker 2:

That's very interesting because you're right. I mean so many of us, you know, with so much doom scrolling on social media, we see the Instagram and we stop. We don't stop to think that that's their highlight reel. That's not what's really going on in their lives, you know, and so we think that we're the only ones stressing out. Look at you know, any attorney, any business owner.

Speaker 3:

Well, that person doesn't have the problems. I have Right, absolutely. And you know I can't emphasize enough this. You know, many attorneys have a streak of perfectionism. It often serves them very, very well professionally and in law school. But when folks with a streak of perfectionism whether it's a small streak or a big streak see pictures of people doing, you know, warrior three on a beach and it's like, well, that's what I should be doing, and if I can't be doing that, then nuts to it, right, it becomes very dangerous all or nothing, thinking about what we can or can't do.

Speaker 3:

Or, you know, we start in the ways that we've gamified fitness in so many ways. You know, people want to see certain metrics on their watch because that's fun, or they want certain I don't know badges. Whatever these set of gamifications have been, we do not reward people enough for just doing the thing, starting the thing. You get full credit if you do two minutes and you don't get extra credit for doing 16, which in my mind, would be a really powerful gamification, right? So you get your sticker, no matter what. If you started doing the thing, how many more people would be willing to stand up from their desk and do two minutes of yoga posture, stretching, breathing, anything, anything If they didn't have the sense that like that doesn't count. I mean, that's not like really doing yoga. Yoga is like you go to a class and you get a man, you get props, and there's a person and there's things. That's yoga. This is not yoga, and yoga practitioners experienced what I would call serious yoga practitioners will say that's nonsense.

Speaker 3:

If you spend 60 seconds breathing deeply and being attentive to what's going on in the here and now. You've done the yoga Congratulations. Or, as I like to say, when I used to teach yoga as a volunteer teacher, I'd say you're doing it. You're doing the yoga by sitting there on the mat. You showed up. That's full credit. Full credit If you lay there the rest of the time, you've already gotten full credit. If you need to leave in 10 minutes, you got full credit. You're nailing it. That's great Good for you. And really fighting back against that all or nothing thinking about what counts and what's useful or what not is useful. I live in Colorado, where it's very easy to get caught up in that thinking, because it's like everyone is so fit and it's very easy for people to start discounting what they can do because there are people doing these things that are like so extreme, right, and so much more. It's like you haven't run a marathon. What are you doing with yourself?

Speaker 2:

Wow, here it just pretty intense, uh, but I I think that's something we have to push back against. I agree the I know that. You know, when you talk about going to the gym, it's always it's been an hour gym, but if you look at all the the pre-designed workout programs, it's all about 20 minutes. Yeah, so who said you have to go to the gym for an hour? If you are constructive about doing something? You know, meditation can be a two minute thing, absolutely. The thing is coming to now and being present. You talk about thought fusion. When we make you know our catastrophic thoughts and we all have those as leaders it's like, oh my God, the sky's falling, you know, and your reactions for the rest of the day are literally reactions to that thought as opposed to moving forward and being present in what's really going on.

Speaker 3:

How do you?

Speaker 3:

work with that noticing is always the first step, right, and I like to ask people to consider the minute they realize they're feeling amped, because the one thing that we can reliably see, okay, is how we're feeling physically. A lot of times we're fused with our thoughts to the point where we're just caught up in a storyline about the way things are and we can't see it yet right. We're too wound up, we're too much in it, but we can immediately detect our body, yeah, and so I like to suggest for people, firstly, that they sort of you remember Stop, drop and Roll from grade school, you know if you smell smoke.

Speaker 3:

I like to suggest kind of a stop, drop and roll approach to smelling smoke, emotionally speaking, and that is the minute you feel you sort of go oh wait, it's just hang on. Just hang on. And if you can have the presence of mind to take a pause, you pull out a pen and anything you can write on. Of mind to take a pause, you pull out a pen and anything you can write on. It doesn't matter if it's the back of a receipt, a cocktail napkin, a piece of junk mail or a draft of your will, it doesn't matter. This is not for posterity, okay. It's simply the act of writing things down. And I ask people to ask themselves two questions, and this is something that it's really helpful. You can write down these two questions on a Post-it note and just stick it behind your monitor so it's there for you all the time, so you don't have to like come up with this stuff, right? You stick it on your bathroom mirror and the questions are essentially one is this what's happening right now?

Speaker 2:

is this what's happening?

Speaker 3:

right now, that's it Okay. And when we've answered the question, is this happening right now? And the answer is always no, it's always no right. The things, marilyn, that are possibly bothering you right now are not happening right now in that office. You are like sitting there in a climate-controlled environment in a very comfortable-looking chair with nice lighting. I bet the temperature is great. You look very comfortable, right. You have your familiar setup. Whatever it is that is bothering you, is not actually happening right, okay.

Speaker 2:

It's a hard question, right it is.

Speaker 3:

it is, yeah, the only way it bothers us is that we've drug it into this moment, into that chair and that lovely setting, with that climate, control temperature, and it's only brought into that moment through thinking.

Speaker 2:

Right, that's it.

Speaker 3:

Otherwise it's not there, it does not exist in that space, wherever it is that you are.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so you would say it's like anxiety, fearing the future is not actually what's happening right now.

Speaker 3:

So acknowledging the sense of anxiety is about the past or the future? A hundred percent?

Speaker 3:

we could probably have a philosophical sort of like discussion about like one percent or being in the present maybe right, but and there are people who have written very eloquently about this, about anxiety is always a story that we're telling ourselves about what's about to happen or what already happened. It's not what's happening, right. So we could take a very simple, concrete example of that. For example, physical pain, right. Physical pain. If you have a scale of zero to ten, and let's just say, let's say something's bothering you, your shoulder's bothering you right now, okay, and let's just say it. Let's say something's bothering you, your shoulder's bothering you right now, okay. And let's just say it's a three, okay.

Speaker 3:

If we were to have, if we were to be able to give you a retinal scan and say, like, what is your pain level without asking you, okay, and we could rank it as a three, okay. We could also then ask you, marilyn, what's your pain like? And you'd be like a six. And we go, oh, interesting, she's experienced, she thinks she's experiencing a six, but we objectively know it's only a three. Why is that?

Speaker 3:

And the answer is time and time again because what would be escalating the pain for you? Is you thinking to yourself something along the lines of and what if I have to have surgery? And what if this is a rotator cuff tear and my mom had that surgery and she was laid up for a year and then she had to. It would be a narrative right about the pain, not the pain itself that we then broadly refer to as the pain right. It's not the physical. It includes this like emotional pain element, which is made up of catastrophic thinking about the future or the past, something that's already happened, but the pain in the present is just.

Speaker 3:

The three makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense because we always build things there's.

Speaker 2:

There's so much more into it. The what ifs, the catastrophic I love the way that you use that word. Yeah, we have these thoughts.

Speaker 3:

We can't look, we come by it naturally, right, I mean, we got to be the dominant species on the food chain by wondering what's going to go wrong next and prepping Squirrel is, I mean, it's a problem and it served us really well in a lot of ways, but we can't turn it off. We are virtually incapable of turning it off. This sort of prepper mentality about everything, right, and we've gotten, so you know, these, these prefrontal cortexes and the places and with the executive functioning and our ability to abstract, you know, about things that might go wrong, is so past the point of survival at this point, right, I mean abstracting. Look when you, when you live out on the savannah or whatever, and a wild animal or a storm might end you, it's good to be like I wonder if that's a storm coming. Maybe you, it's good to be like I wonder if that's a storm coming, maybe I should build a shelter, just on the off case. I don't know. Right, that's all good.

Speaker 3:

Very few of us are living in those conditions right now. Right, correct, the equipment, the hardware is so old and the software, the software updates, only kind of stick. There's this part of us running. It's like running DOS, you know, and it's like part of us is like I got to worry about what my boss might say next Tuesday, even though that's a long way away from storms coming might need to build a shelter in terms of threat level, but we recognize it as such.

Speaker 3:

It's all something that might go down later. That might end me, and we have very little granularity or nuance about what it means in modern, those catastrophic thinking narratives that cause us, of course, literal physical distress because the nervous system doesn't know the difference.

Speaker 3:

The nervous system says like you're telling me there's a threat, let's go, let's go, let's do this. Okay, it's on, right. Nervous system is even less granular and nuanced than the thinking equipment is right, so that the nervous system is just like this, on a little toggle switch. It's either on or it's off, and whether you're freaking out about the grocery store being out of your favorite soda or you're freaking out about a predator ending you, either way the grocery store is like or the nervous is like wow, this is odd, right.

Speaker 2:

Very cool, you know. So, yes, we all do that, and with stress and anxiety, I mean, especially as in a leadership role or business owner, we all do that. So we're looking at, and the one thing that my coach talks about is following the data. Look at the data. So your first question is is this happening in real time? Is this really? Look at the data? So your first question is is this happening in real time? Is this really happening right now? What is your second question to yourself about that? To get us back centered yeah.

Speaker 3:

The second question is whether it is or is not happening in real time and PS, it never is Is what am I responding to? Am I responding to what's happening, aka, aka the data or am I reacting to something else? Because something else is usually this narrative we've gotten caught up in. So let me give you a really interesting example of this that involves both catastrophizing and cognitive fusion, okay, which is literally when you start acting in real time according to something that's happening in your imagination. You have fused with a purely cognitive experience and now you're-.

Speaker 4:

That's why it's called cognitive fusion.

Speaker 3:

So a great example of this happens to most people I know, way self-included, quite frankly, on a regular basis and we can talk about it because it's kind of funny and most people can relate. Many of us care deeply about not hurting people's feelings, right, we don't want to go through life stepping on people's toes, hurting people's feelings, especially the ones we care about. But generally not anybody right? Most people, I would hazard a guess to say women in particular, have this experience where we will suddenly get some piece of data right from the world around us and we'll go uh-oh, I wonder if she's mad at me. Her being friend, partner doesn't matter, right?

Speaker 3:

somebody, somebody, boss, colleague I wonder if she's mad at me. She might be mad at me. We start entertaining this thought she might be mad at me. We start entertaining the thought she might be mad at me, which could be true under any given conditions, right? Somebody might be mad at you. Absolutely, it's absolutely true. What if she's offended? I might've offended her, something along these lines? And this thing happens. This slide we very quickly, with no additional input from the world around us, no additional data points go from is a subtle but important difference she might be mad at me to she is mad at me. And all of a sudden, without confirmation of any kind, we have gone to this place of like oh, she is mad at me, she is mad at me, that person is mad at me, she's offended, she's upset, she's this, she's that. And with every passing moment that this person doesn't call or text or something like this, this becomes the data for us that, yep, it's true.

Speaker 2:

Look, it's happening right right I mean especially if you grew up with a passive-aggressive parent oh, for sure you're absolutely geared to go there yes, wired for sound.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, wired geared to go there.

Speaker 2:

I love that, yes, it for sound Wired for sound, geared to go there.

Speaker 3:

I love that. Yes, it's so true. And so, with every passing moment, we sort of are like interpreting data around us. For example, well, she hasn't texted me in five minutes or 10 minutes or two days, or whatever it is. That must confirm this narrative that I have, that I made up, that did not come from this person, right, right?

Speaker 2:

There's no data that I made up, that did not come from this person. Right? This is right.

Speaker 3:

There's no data, complete extrapolation of the data points. Right? This is like saying, like every constellation, you know. You're like, oh, there's the line. And I'm like, no, here's the monster truck. I mean, you can make the points into whatever you want, you can connect those now however you want those things. True, right, right, do it.

Speaker 3:

And so then, as we become more sort of invested in the storyline of like, oh my gosh, she is mad at me, oh my gosh, she is offended, our bodies start to react accordingly. Right, our fight or flight system starts to get amped, we get a little adrenaline and that becomes a confirmation point. See, I can feel it. So, yes's wrong, something's off. I can tell, yeah, because your fight or flight system is like slowly ratcheting up right To the flip on. And we then have this emotional reasoning effect which is like, because I feel like something's wrong, it means something is wrong. And now you're making a zone. It does not make a zone, not one time, right? I mean, I've got a lottery tickets in my life. It's my one vice. I have a lottery ticket and every time I buy one, I'll tell you what it feels like a winner to the depths of my soul.

Speaker 3:

But, every single one. Right, you're up in your mind, you're buying plane tickets.

Speaker 2:

What am I going to do when I pick them? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:

I buy them every now and then. That's great this is.

Speaker 2:

This is the one right. Well, it would. Maryland is may shock you, it's not happening one time. Hey, I won four. I think I won sixteen dollars one time, but you're ahead of me.

Speaker 3:

You are ahead of me. I may have won sixteen dollars, like in one dollar increments over the years, but I am impressed with it.

Speaker 2:

That's a jackpot in my mind yeah, yeah, exactly, it is one of those things that you only borrowed it because you turned around and bought another lottery ticket with it. 100 percent, wow, I, you're right, I mean it's.

Speaker 3:

It is interesting how we all do that, where we just start spiraling on something that we have no data to confirm yes, yes, and part of that and of that and again, we all do it, lots of us do it lots of the time. Right Is because there's something really comforting in not. We would rather be like oh no, she's mad at me than wonder if she's mad at me. We like security and certainty and we would rather decide for sure that someone's mad so that we can decide what we're going to do, as opposed to sit in a gray area. We find gray areas of like is she mad at me? Very much more distressing than she is mad at me because she is mad at me.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I can make an action play on that. I'm going to send flowers, call, whatever the case may be, I'm going to start doing stuff. That's a problem I can attack and solve. But being open to a place of not knowing, sitting in a place of like oh I don't know, she might be mad at me is very uncomfortable for most of us, and so we actually prefer to go down the rabbit hole of she is mad at me because we like certainty more than we like uncertainty, even if it's a quote bad certainty. She is mad at me.

Speaker 2:

So in that instance, would those two questions still come into play? Is this really happening? Because if you think she's mad at me, is it really happening? I need to make that phone call or find out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah it's a great, that's a great question and the answer is yes, because, again, if you can pause and ask yourself is she mad at me? That should lead you to the like. Is this happening? Right, and you say like yes, and sometimes this is what's helpful about working with a therapist Right, because they can help you with these sort of Socratic exchanges that it's hard to have with yourself when you're first learning to have with yourself, when you're first learning Eventually. The idea should be is that you should be able to do this with yourself. Right, but I would say to you, I would say to myself, I would say to ever, how do you know? And you would go Because I feel bad and it feels true, and I'd be like OK, what else? Right. And you'd be like, because she hasn't called in two days, and I'd be like OK, Is that what that means?

Speaker 2:

Has she never called in?

Speaker 3:

two days, right, and you might say, well, I mean no, but probably you know, and I go oh wait, so probably means there's room for that's not an inevitability, and we would eventually work our way around to this space of great space where you or I, or whoever we're talking to here, would be able to say like, okay, yeah, actually that could mean a lot of things. That could mean a whole lot of things, including, not limited to she's in the hospital, something in her life has gone terribly wrong, she's transitioning phones and it's switching from android to iphone. It's all wrong, as it so often does, or?

Speaker 1:

you know whatever.

Speaker 3:

There are a million reasons, including it's just not that deep, she's busy, yeah, yeah, and most of us, when we reality test these kinds of situations that we're talking about, if we think about, historically, the times that we've got really wrapped around the axle about like is somebody upset with me?

Speaker 2:

the answer's been right, right and again a phone call would be. You know could fix that phones go by place 100 100 hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Speaker 3:

Yes. So asking yourself is it happening includes the sub questions. Well, if you say yes, what are you referring to? Is it happening that you're upset right now? Oh yeah, that's happening.

Speaker 3:

But that doesn't mean the other thing is happening, like she is mad at you, right? What can we know and what can we not know about what is happening and what's not happening? Because we can't know. In this scenario that you and I are sort of imagining right now that this person is mad, you can't know. All you know is she hasn't called Right. It's the only thing you know. Capital K, no, he said. In fact, you don't even know that your cell could be broken. Maybe you're not getting calls. You don't even know that she hasn't called right. Who knows? So asking myself is this happening is really maybe another way of saying what do I know? Okay, and what do I know could include I feel like something's really wrong. You could know that. But to say I feel like something's really wrong is to acknowledge a vast difference between I feel like something's really wrong and something is really wrong.

Speaker 2:

So that's accepting the fact that I made it permanent.

Speaker 3:

I made it definite, as opposed to gray area which makes a huge difference, right, Because you and I could think through scenarios here of all sort of stakes levels, and I think this is important when it comes to leadership and when we find ourselves in these positions of duress. Different scenarios certainly have different stakes, right? But regardless. Well, let's take the example we're using, Going with option A.

Speaker 3:

Well, let's take the example we're using Going with option A she might be mad at me versus option B. She is mad at me. Those you know. Like a little kid in your ear, talking trash is going to hype you up more than one. Not doing Right. It's very simple, Right.

Speaker 3:

And when we attach to these ideas of certainty and what we know, right, it is a little voice that is now hyping us up in one direction or another or not. And one of the things that we can make a choice about globally actually and this is above and beyond what we know or don't know is do we want to be in a position where we are hyping ourselves up or not? Because that's a behavioral choice that each of us can make every single minute of the day and that has nothing to do with. Is something true or false? True or false is a whole other issue. The question is do you want to hype yourself up or not? Is that helpful to you or unhelpful? Is it constructive or destructive? Is it adding to your quality of life and your quality of leadership, or is it subtracting Not? Is the content true or false?

Speaker 2:

Interesting. Yes, I absolutely agree that, looking at it from a different, and you have to like be at the point, catch yourself early enough that you can stop and make it through and ask this question before you get you know spun out on something yes, although I would also say that I I would encourage people greatly, in the same way that I would encourage people to fully embrace two minutes of yoga or mindfulness or breathing or zen garden tending, what you know.

Speaker 3:

Whatever the thing is, I think it's important not to have all or nothing thinking about it's too late. I've gotten wound up, okay it's never too late. It is never too late to go in a different direction, and I think it's very easy for us to say like I'm already, I'm already there, right, I'm already amped, or I already maybe spun off on someone a little bit, or I already sent that email, or something is done and so it's done. And I would say that is absolutely does not have to be true.

Speaker 2:

That's. I agree with that, because if it's, if it's not constructive, you can always. You can always turn it around a hundred percent.

Speaker 3:

A hundred percent, and that means with yourself, that means with other people, and you know, there's an element, I think, of real compassion that has to come into play there. Sometimes people have this interesting inclination to almost self-punish by sort of taking the stance, whether they realize it or not, like I did it. So I'm gonna live with it, because that's what I did, you know. Or it's too late.

Speaker 2:

I mean it's too late as a self-punishing stance and I can say that that can go back to you know the stories you have to work through that you were given as a child absolutely you know and those and that just to make for me. That was one one, you know, it's just, it's too late. Whatever you did it, then you have to accept it.

Speaker 3:

Live with it. It's on your record.

Speaker 2:

You were wrapped in it Exactly.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I do like that idea that it's never too late, and that's true. We're adults, we control this stuff.

Speaker 3:

We just have to remember to control how we react and move forward. So, yes, and that, and that other adults, whether they, whether you're close to them or not close to them are often having the same experience. Right, and then, in a way, being open to letting yourself off the hook, being open to letting yourself say, oh, actually, I'm going to take a redo on that to the best of my ability is a wonderful gift that you give to other people, because you are modeling for other people how to be compassionate with themselves when they make a mistake or when they do something out of pocket or snap off because they're emotionally agitated or whatever the case may be. And most adults are struggling with the same things in terms of what we're talking about, most adults. Who was it I don't remember what political campaign it was where somebody called somebody a waffler and that became? It was an American political campaign, somebody, maybe it was Romney. Somebody called somebody a waffler and that was like, oh, the worst thing you could be as a waffler, which is somebody who like changes their mind Right.

Speaker 3:

And I think we often like have this strange sense that like there's some sort of lack of chivalry in sort of softening with yourself and letting yourself off the hook and going no, I, I have new information.

Speaker 3:

Or I and I, given the new data points, I feel differently about that. Or, given the new data points, I actually don't think I did do the right thing in that situation, or, given the new data points, I'm sorry, that's how I responded to you, or y'all, or the situation or the scenario, whatever the case may be. You know, one of the things that I hope the most for people is that they give themselves the opportunity to experience that kind of softness from themselves and also model that for other people, because most they think it looks like a sign of admission of some kind of guilt or weakness, or weakness right and B. They feel like they ought to live with it and that's just the price they're going to pay. Is, you know, kind of having that, having that on their minds for the next six months or whatever the case may be, until things sort of numbs out and it becomes a dull ache instead of a sharp slice and we don't have to live like that.

Speaker 2:

No, I think it's important to give yourself grace about. You know moving forward, making changes and corrections at times, and you know being the leader that can be that in front of your team shows that type of culture.

Speaker 3:

So I bring it to the people around you and it makes people feel safe, right, like people want to know, because we're all the same. Everybody's fighting the same demons, everybody's struggling with the same battles, right? Maybe not at the same time and maybe not in the same intensity intervals, but ultimately we're all fighting the same things, and so, to the degree to which you can show a little bit of compassion with yourself, of softness towards error or acceptance of error, acceptance of fallibility, you are letting other people off the hook too, and that's what you want as a leader, right? You don't want people to bury mistakes and you find out about it a year later in the bottom of some spreadsheet. That's not good.

Speaker 3:

You want people to feel safe to come forward and say I made a mistake and we need to fix it now and if they're fearful that they're going to be have their feet held to the fire, actively or passively, for the next two months and be shunned or be punished in some way, even if that's just purely emotionally or socially, which is very.

Speaker 3:

Most people would rather be fined, right, big bucks, you know, emotionally or socially shunned, right, and so creating a culture in which they think, oh, this person's money is where their mouth is. They don't just say that. They want us to feel comfortable, coming forward and saying, oops, I made a mistake and I want to fix it now before it gets away from us. Right, you have to model that, because you can say things all day long, but people watch and people will not hear what you say. If what you are doing is sending a different message, that is, telling people this is a safe space, whatever safety it is we're referring to, right, and then showing up in a way that messages it's not a safe space, nobody will hear you say no matter how bold the print is on the memo saying we support people who fill in the blank that they won't matter. No, if the actions don't match that.

Speaker 2:

I agree Absolutely. This has been really great. I've really enjoyed this conversation and I love the two questions. Thank you so much for that. I know the listeners are probably going to want to reach out to you, connect with you. Where is the best place that they can reach and connect with you?

Speaker 3:

going to want to reach out to you, connect with you where is the best place that they can reach and connect with you? They can find me in multiple places on my website, which is OnwardPsychServicescom. That's OnwardPsychServicescom. There's a contact me form. There's an email address. I have a phone that I answer. I use it as a phone Call me.

Speaker 3:

My phone number is 720-362-8164. I had to look at that, I don't know. I don't know my own phone number, but I have it and I answer it. I just want to make that clear. And they can also find me on Instagram. I like to make on Wednesdays, I release what I call practical tactical videos, and they're very short, very fun videos that are practical, tactical illustrations of how to utilize concepts that will make your life better in very concrete ways, and they're super fun. I hope you'll check them out. I love making them. They absolutely delight me. It's a creative outlet and these are analogies and examples that have resonated with people over a long course of time in terms of illustrating some of these concepts that have been really useful.

Speaker 2:

Very cool. Yeah, we'll make sure that all of those URLs get in the show notes, and I'm going to go check out your Instagram. I'm going to check out the videos. It's going to be great. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been very exciting. My pleasure, it's been absolutely a delight.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about, and if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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