Leadership In Law Podcast

36 Little ‘S’ Systems vs. Big ‘S’ Systems with Jessica Lackey

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 36

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What if your business's growth could be unstoppable with the right strategies and systems in place? Join us as we chat with Jessica Lackey, an adept strategy and operations advisor, who shares her evolution from corporate honcho to entrepreneurial trailblazer. Jessica draws from her experiences at McKinsey & Company and Harvard Business School to unravel the differences between "little S systems" and "big S systems," urging business owners to rethink processes that may no longer fit. Gain insights into optimizing business foundations and learn how to properly assess and refine your operations for enhanced efficiency and growth.

Navigating the terrain of business expansion, especially within the legal and microagency sectors, can be tricky. Our conversation highlights the foundational pillars every business must secure—marketing, cash flow, and pricing—before making new hires. Listen as we uncover the common pitfalls of rapid scaling, stressing the importance of implementing robust people systems that go beyond mere task management. We also weigh various task management tools, deliberating on their pros and cons to help you choose the best fit for your business’s unique needs.

Building effective systems is crucial for any thriving business. We emphasize starting with simple tools and transitioning to more sophisticated platforms as your business grows, ensuring these systems align with your actual processes. Jessica shares her experiences with task management, client relationship management, and the art of outsourcing. She highlights the importance of mastering core business activities before delegating, to avoid misaligned expectations. Finally, tune in to discover the value of community, as we invite you to connect with fellow law firm owners and share resources on your leadership journey.

Reach Jessica here:
Website: https://www.jessicalackey.com/ 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jessicalackey_consulting/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-lackey/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jslackey 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, jessica Lackey, to the show today. Jessica is a strategy and operations advisor who bridges the gap between traditional business practices and a thirst for creating sustainable businesses with a human-centric approach. With a background in corporate leadership, mckinsey Company consulting and a Harvard business degree, jessica knows a thing or two about hustle culture and what it means to judge success by the bottom line at all costs. Now she combines her deep experience with consulting, fortune 500 operations, leadership and coaching to help businesses grow without sacrificing the well-being of their clients, their team and community. I'm excited to have you here, jessica, welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. I'm excited to be you here, Jessica Welcome. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

I'm excited to be here Absolutely, so tell us a bit about how you got started.

Speaker 3:

So I was climbing the corporate ladder, like most of us do, hit a wall and decided I no longer wanted to work for big corporate anymore. So my background is in supply chain and operations. And so, six years after I hit that wall, I finally left out on my own thanks to COVID for normalizing remote work and started building my own solo business consultancy.

Speaker 2:

COVID did that. For a lot of people it's kind of normalized being working on Zoom and remote. That's one good thing about it.

Speaker 3:

Terrible, terrible, but also gave me the flexibility to kind of launch the practice that way I wanted to.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic, great. So I was looking at some of your things that you like to help businesses with, and one of the things that struck me was your little S systems and big S systems. So we all talk about processes and growth and scale. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

Speaker 3:

So when I say that I help business owners with systems, everyone's like, oh so, you helped me decide on my task management tool like ClickUp or Clio, or you helped me decide on my invoicing platform. I say no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about the system of how your business operates. That's what I call the big S system. So who do you serve? How do you get clients? How do you deliver the work? Those are all the big systems that say how does my business operate? That eventually leads into people, processes and tools.

Speaker 2:

Okay, all right, excellent. So were you talking SOPs? Or you mean like high level deciding, sit down as a C-suite and decide how is this going so?

Speaker 3:

you mean like high level deciding, sit down as a C-suite decide. How is this going? The latter so, as a perfect example, you know a lot of people say, okay, well, I need to have an invoicing system that bills hourly, which means I need to track my time, which means I need to send invoices out at the end of the month that are based on hours. And I say, well, that's sure, maybe, but do you want to bill hourly? Is that how your business operates? Do you invoice at the end of the month or at the beginning of the month? These are all big, more philosophical questions that say how does my business run? That then dictate do I need a tool that translates my time-tracked hours to an invoice or not?

Speaker 2:

Okay, and so in thinking about that, do you help, like, find weaknesses and turn them into strengths? So if say, I've got a process that's not really serving me, but I've always done it like this, do you help with that structure?

Speaker 3:

I do. The question I always ask is do we need to do this? In the first place period? You might say well, I did it this way when I was starting. I did this way when I was a single lawyer, when I was doing the grab bag of all types of law. But now that I'm more focused and I'm more, maybe more scaled or thinking about hiring more team members, maybe the way I used to do it.

Speaker 3:

One there's activities I used to do that I just don't need to do anymore. It doesn't fit my business model or my revenue structure or my scope of practice anymore. So, one can we just stop doing stuff? And then two, for the future, what do we need to strengthen and shore up from our business foundations? And we have to think about solving business foundations at once. Making a process that's not your bottleneck more efficient may not actually be where you need to spend your time. If you're like, oh, let me figure out how to make my invoicing smoother and you're not involved with the invoicing, it's somebody else, but yet you don't have the marketing system set up to bring in you more business, to kind of use that extra time, maybe we need to stand up the marketing engine first, before we focus on more structures in the back end.

Speaker 2:

The cart before the horse. Yeah, being able to see the whole picture.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a lot of business owners are like what happens when I scale? And I'm like, all right, pause, do you have the marketing set up to scale? Because if your clients are coming catch as catch can and there's no predictability to it, you could spend all this time preparing your business to scale. But you're actually working on the wrong thing.

Speaker 2:

Nice, that's a good point, because I know that we're all neat. You know, we're told we have to be ready to scale. We have to be ready to scale, but you know, if you don't have all the systems in place, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, now you think about. So, talking about scale, let's talk about the math behind the stages of scaling. So thinking about where we are and where we want to be, and it's like you said, it's not all revenue. Can you explain your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3:

the back of your car or you packed us out of an office. It's you, just you, and then there's you plus maybe an assistant, or you plus the paralegal. These are all different revenue models. To say, okay, before I bring someone on, do I have the marketing in place? Do I have the cashflow in place? Is my pricing set up to absorb a cost of a person?

Speaker 3:

These are different decisions that we have to make than if we're starting to bring on a junior lawyer, if we're starting to bring on partners, if we're trying to scale to multiple offices or add on a practice area.

Speaker 3:

Everyone says, oh, I want more, I want more, I want to grow more, but with that comes the cost right. Like you have to then add some leadership responsibilities that we don't always talk about, about. You know, how are we going to do revenue share? How are we going to do billing? How are we going to appropriately handle, you know, splitting out the administrative cost of, like, a shared office. You know, a shared back office if we're bringing on different practice owners. So these are some of the costs that we have to think about when we're starting out. We don't have to think about that. It's like you bring in, you bill, you make the money and then, as you move forward, there's a lot of hidden shared expenses that are back office, that we don't always think about when we're saying, okay, well, how much do I need to bill and how do I need to structure my practice.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so thinking about the nuts and bolts of the whole thing instead of just the big number we're shooting for.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, in my work I work with some I work with law practices, but I also work with a lot of other business owners and what they find particularly at, like the microagency stage, is that an owner is sometimes more profitable when it's just them and maybe an assistant than when they're bringing on a lot of people to do the work, because then they're having to pay their team the reasonable salary and they get what's left over because they haven't increased their prices enough, they aren't getting enough throughput, their team is maybe not as utilized as they need to be.

Speaker 3:

And who takes the brunt of that? The owner, because you have to pay payroll. So at that point in time you either have to kind of go one in two directions scale back down or really prepare for the next stage of business. But that like in-between stage where you brought on the people to prepare for the work, but maybe you don't, you're not fully utilized and you're not as efficient as you want to be, that's a really tricky stage where, if you haven't prepared for it with finances, the right marketing strategies, the right client load coming in and the right business structure from an offers perspective, that's the period that's real. That's real tricky in an owner comp.

Speaker 2:

And I think that there's a lot of people in different businesses, not just law firms that that's the position where they either A go burnout or lean in, and it's almost like there's really no gray area there. You got to pick one and because it's so hard and stressful, and the thing is is we didn't start a business to work 18 hours a day, especially if we hired somebody to take stuff off our plate.

Speaker 3:

Right, but there's that nine month period of preparing for hiring someone, and then the three months where they're probably not going to be nearly as effective and efficient as you want them to be, where either you're having to potentially take less business on, which means you're eating into your reserves in order to, like, free up the time to train them, or click it into the next gear and say this is the time of I'm really going to focus and like I'm going to kind of push through this part. The tricky part is when you want to bring on someone from a team perspective and you're like, well, I don't, they'll figure it out, or I don't need to train them, or they'll just start working right out of the gates, and I'm like, no, no, that's a recipe for having those people turn in and turn out of your organization. There's a step change that happens at those hiring inflection points, and ignoring that as a recipe for staying in that period for much longer than you need to be.

Speaker 2:

And unfortunately we've all done that. You hire somebody, you put them out to pasture, they'll take care of that and now that's off by play, Until you found out that there was a dramatic error, that now you didn't have time to do, but now you have time to fix.

Speaker 3:

Yep, if you know it's coming in. You know it's usually not the first hire, unless they work with me, and I'm like I'm the first hire. I'm like let's slow down, let's make sure you know what they're going to do. You have quality control processes in place. This is again big S systems versus the little s systems. Yeah, you can have a task management system and send you know files that they need to work on and tasks they need to work on through that. But if you haven't thought through well, who's checking the work? How am I delegating it? When am I delegating it? You know, how are we communicating this to the clients? How are we letting them know that the person whose name used to be on the email is no longer going to be the name always on the email? Those are things that like that's again like the bigger philosophy of the people systems in your business versus like the. Oh yeah, I set up my task management software and I got them an email address and we're good to go on systems.

Speaker 2:

Now, outside of Clio and case management software, do you recommend anything like, say, asana or ClickUp or Monday for the other tasks around the office?

Speaker 3:

yes, I do, I have. I would not say I'm the expert on these things, but as someone who I like highly recommend ClickUp reason. Monday has like a weird. I'm dealing with this right now.

Speaker 3:

Sorry for the tangent but, like Monday, has a real hard time with recurring tasks and I've heard that yeah, like I'm trying to be like you can't just like click the recurring tab, like we should be able to do this and Asana is really great out of the box but has trouble with like templates and task templates that you might say, okay, for every case we're doing, maybe the the legal part is handled here, but, like, these have recurring steps and things like that and asana is a little less capable of doing that.

Speaker 3:

I like, I like if I can get my clients and click up, I want them and click up. But again, a task management system is better than no task management system. A place to write down your sops is better than no place or waiting till you find the perfect place. I'm like start you can. You can handle a lot of tasks with a shared Google sheet of recurring things that you just link an SOP to and you just go down the list. It doesn't have to be as formal, as I do love a good click up, but you don't need to do that. Again, like the process, for how you communicate tasks is almost more important than like the system. Again, big S versus little s.

Speaker 2:

Right. So we started out with the Google drive with a folder for each of our SOPs and then a table of contents, if you will, being a sheet, and we are transitioning into ClickUp for some things that are, you know, team-wide. So I have looked at Asana throw away really quickly. I heard I didn't hear good things about Monday, so we went with ClickUp as well. So I really like how you can do you set things up, duplicate your folder and assign people to it. It works so much better it does, it does.

Speaker 3:

But like what I see a lot of times again, people hire a ClickUp person to set up this and I look in there. I'm like this does not actually reflect how you do business or what you care about. So you know yeah setting it like, and it's really hard to. When you've set up, you're like oh my God, I'm staring these like a list of red tasks in the face because I I don't know how to use this. I'm like start small, move, migrate things over. Same thing with a CRM system.

Speaker 3:

So you know, you might use a nutshell or something that's located in a Clio. But if you just like, add every contact to your practice management or CRM software and then you're like, oh, I'm going to talk, I'm going to reach out to these clients once a month, you're never going to do that unless you have, like, a staff dedicated to that. So, like you know, set the bar real low. Only reach out to prospects and people who have maybe used your services in the year or two. If you need to add them to your CRM, I say like, let them earn their way in, but let's not assume you're going to have all this time to do it perfectly. No one has that time until they're really big, and even then I don't know if they have the time to do it like perfectly, unless they are a process nut, and then maybe they'll.

Speaker 2:

You know, yeah, like we use a lot of automations right to make sure people don't fall through the cracks, but that again takes some processes, some ideas and put it together.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and what you'll find is that in the beginning you're again most.

Speaker 3:

most people start with their practices like I'm going to serve anyone and everyone that will pay me just to get started, you may find that the again going back to the bigger systems, at some point you may say these, these clients no longer fit the business model we're trying to. We might depart from them as clients. We may let them go and transition them into other providers, and that is okay. I just want to like normalize that, like you don't have to like have a totally a hundred percent accurate history of every client you've ever worked with, because some of them might not actually be the clients you intend to work with. As you like formalize how you work and who you work with and what you do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree, it's like in any business. It's like niching down helps you to do the same thing over and over again and get good at it. Yeah Right, and it fits what you want to do. But I understand people that want to do, you know, try everything. Let's just get the bills paid and keep a roof over our heads and then figure out what you love to do.

Speaker 3:

That's what I do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean and I work with immigration attorneys that some do everything and some specialize, and it really depends on what they really, really enjoy doing and how close they'd like to get to the client or trial work or any of that kind of stuff. So that makes a lot of sense and then you set your processes based on that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's where again, the system of how you like to work and you know how much trial work versus non-trial work do you do. How much do you work with companies? And again, like if you're you have a billing practice where you end up working with large organizations no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, excellent, yeah, and it's nice to be able to put that down and get a real idea, because I find that, as CEO, what you end up doing is you've got a lot up here that you haven't put on paper and you expect all your team to know it. That's why we can do everything better than our team can.

Speaker 3:

I call that management by mind meld and that doesn't work very well. But again, you don't have to have like the perfect SOP template. I love the checklist manifesto where you just write down what things you look for and start looking before having a really formal quality check SOP. Just write down all the mental checks that you go through, start with like particular documents and things like that, and like start, just start, and it doesn't have to be perfect and it doesn't have to be super comprehensive.

Speaker 3:

But, like as you, when you start putting your thoughts on paper, other people are going to be like, well, I look at this and I look at this and we think about this and it's going to be much better because it's done by a lot of people, or this isn't clear. You know your garbly good coming that you wrote down in your shorthand maybe isn't clear to someone who doesn't have 20 years of deep experience in this topic.

Speaker 2:

And we did when we were setting up SOPs, one of the things that I was busy doing, team were busy doing. They were like God, I have SOPs, team, we're busy doing, and we're like god, I have sops. And when we finally thought, stopped and thought and said all we have to do is open loom record as we do something, talk about it, talk it through, and then what I would do is I would take that loom and I would give it to a team member. Go, you do it and that way you'd find out if you missed a step yep, it's show one, do one, teach one is a philosophy I like to have.

Speaker 3:

So we show one and through Loom they do it, and then they teach someone else.

Speaker 2:

Oh, nice, okay yeah.

Speaker 3:

The nice part about Loom now is, especially with the AI capabilities, it can summarize your words into some checklists and some it can start an SOP, so that way someone who's redoing it doesn't have to watch the video or doesn't have to start from like a blank slate. They can be like these were the steps that someone outlined. Oh, this isn't right and this isn't in the right order, and these are other things that didn't come up that we think about. I do love having the Loom video because people see the shortcuts and how you do stuff.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Speaker 3:

It's not just like what to do, but it's like, oh, like this particular way I like manage the mouse around the keyboard saved 20 minutes on a particular task, which you wouldn't get when you just did an SOP.

Speaker 2:

Right, and have you seen the tool I think it's Scribd that can. It follows your mouse and creates a document at the same time.

Speaker 3:

All these AI tools are fantastic now for really helping codify the way you do the work.

Speaker 2:

And I think, if you, if you really think about how easy it is to make an SOP it doesn't have to be a big project, and I've known companies that put off doing SOPs for months because it's like this big gray cloud that they just can't figure out how to get away from, and it's like chill loom. That's first step.

Speaker 3:

SOPs are even good for me, even on tasks that I'm not hiring out, like to have like this is the link that you always use and I don't have to search in my email to find it and these are what you.

Speaker 3:

You, I'm holding this up, but I have like a list of all my clients for a task. This is my weekly task manager of just like did I forget anything? I have a click up, but sometimes I'm just like I need it on my desk to take notes and I look through and I'm like oh wait, I haven't heard from so-and-so in like a week. I need to send a message and this is like a nice checklist, like it's good for me, like I print this out once a week and just be like have I touched base with everyone I need to touch base with? And maybe they didn't have a task assigned in my task manager, but that's actually a problem because I need to reach out to them, and so I have a. I have a little piece of paper, you know that works for me, but I have a checklist.

Speaker 2:

So I'm like, oh, I didn't forget anything?

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, and I, I always have something my list of what I'm working on. You know, I've got a to-do list always. It's just something I never got away from, but I live with my calendar. So, yeah, it's the process that you're going through. Let's transition a moment. I love where we're going. You know talking about this. But let's look at outsourcing. So a lot of companies outsource part of their work, and, whether it's a law firm, using a virtual paralegal or something or any of that kind of thing, what, what, why should a law firm or an owner think twice before they just outsource part of their business?

Speaker 3:

So I have a framework I'm testing out for how to think about outsourcing, especially until you've mastered the activity and if it's core to your business, outsourcing can be a challenge. So when I say core and complex, particularly I'm thinking about sales, marketing, finances and the strategy work behind our deliverables. You know we may say, oh, I just want to outsource marketing. All right, well, do they? Like you have to have any firm you outsource marketing to, or like Legion or something like that, until you know your ideal client, until you know what you want to make a point about on social media or in your email marketing, until you know your messaging and your ideal client and like have a sales process.

Speaker 3:

Trying to like pay for leads or pay for you know pay for advertising isn't going to work and so we can outsource those things too early. And we can also outsource things without. We outsource business finances a lot, which I'm like go outsource your bookkeeping, know how your books work. You can't just like outsource with blinders on, because then you're likely to not understand your business and then the final part is a lot of times there's a hierarchy mismatch we want to outsource something and we're outsourcing it to someone more junior who doesn't have the context, doesn't know, kind of like what you are expecting as outcome, and we kind of expect them to jump up to what we're thinking about and pull it out of our heads.

Speaker 2:

But a lot of times outsourcing is not.

Speaker 3:

that's not their skillset, like they're doers, depending on what you hire for. But if you kind of say we'll figure it out, or just do it and you haven't taken the time to like document what you want, document how, what are the no-nos and the yeses? Document like what you're like even thinking through the level of delegation that you are expecting from them. Like is this something that needs to be client ready as soon as you get it back? Like those are all things that you can't just assume they're going to figure out. You have to make the implicit explicit. A lot of people don't take the time to do that.

Speaker 2:

I can agree with that. We have clients that we've worked with that. Until we send them through the onboarding and ask really the detailed questions about their company, they haven't thought about that and about their ideal client and what they want to specific. And then one question that's quite interesting that a lot of people don't know the answer to is what sets you apart from your competition? Because we can use that information in the ads and the marketing, because if it sets you apart, it sets you apart, but they're like well, it's like you've got to do something different.

Speaker 3:

And you do. You just don't know what it is, so you need to think about it. I really appreciate your distinction, which I should also bring up, is like hiring a specialist expert and outsourcing to an expert versus outsourcing to a junior generalist who knows what questions to ask and is more probative.

Speaker 3:

You're going to pay more money for it. Then the junior person is just going to do what you ask, but they are not going to have the expertise to ask those probative questions to really help you maximize the impact of your investment. So those are some of the things that, if you don't have the time and space to outline your expectations really, really clearly, hire someone that has the expertise to ask those questions because that's their specialty. So, like, hire the expert before you outsource to a generalist, for the most part.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and keep the communication open. That's the one thing that you know. We are very communicative with our clients and we have some clients that just don't want that. You know, instead of the weekly check-in, they call me once a month. Okay, that's your choice, but you're going to get the weekly email, you know. So there's, there's always that, but I can't tell you the people that I've spoken with that hired an outsourcing marketing agency that didn't speak to anybody for a month, I mean for six months and I'm like six months Okay, so no, when you outsource, you also need to be communicative and make sure that you guys work together and it's a good relationship. So I definitely agree with that. And just thinking about the energy of a business when you're getting there and you're helping them to make those new hiring and getting ready to scale, so you've got your ducks in a row, you're bringing on people. Talk about a little bit about that. I mean, how do you help with that and and getting moving forward?

Speaker 3:

So the way I personally help is I help like put things in sequence. So, are we ready to hire? What role are we hiring for? What level are we hiring for? Do we have processes in place for them? Do we, you know, do?

Speaker 3:

A lot of times people are like oh, I'm, I'm overloaded. And the first question is not who do we hire? The first question is what do we stop? And the next question is how do we restructure the business to free up your time without having to spend any more money? And then we talk about OK, now, what's left? What do we hire for? How do we need to set up the business back end to do that? But you find a lot of times that you know, before we hire, we have to restructure the offers and you know, do we get away from hourly billing? Do we go to more packages? Do we go to a different retainer model? Do we narrow expertise? Do we let go of legacy clients that are no longer the right fit for us? Those are all a lot of things that can be done even before you scale. You're like preparing the reserves.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And there's so many things that you can do and part of my role is to help hold the hold the sequence in place so that the right things we're solving, the right next step each way, versus putting process and system and structure and people around the wrong business right, I.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love the fact, yeah, that you look at. Okay, I, as the CEO, know that I want to outsource this. I want to get this off my plate and I love that you go wait a minute. Let's see if that's what you really need and will that something different solve your problem? Excellent, I love this conversation. I love what you do for law firms and for businesses. So I know that other people are going to be taking a lot away from this by how you're methodically helping them, and I know my listeners are going to want to reach out to you or connect with and a link to a stage of business quiz.

Speaker 3:

That's a little more geared towards like soloists and people in their earlier stages of building their practice, but probably really helpful, very helpful for lawyer law firms, thinking about the beginning stages of growth.

Speaker 2:

Okay, fantastic. We'll make sure that we have your links in the show notes as well, jessica. Thank you so much. This has been really enlightening. I've really enjoyed the conversation, thank you.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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