Leadership In Law Podcast

37 Putting More Profit In Your Pocket with Danielle Hendon

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 37

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Discover how to transform business debt from a burden into a growth tool with insights from our esteemed guest, Danielle Hendon, founder and owner of Four Corner CFO. In our discussion, Danielle emphasizes the power of intentional financial decisions, illustrating how strategic debt management can unlock potential growth avenues, even when immediate returns aren't visible. We explore the emotional toll of unintentional debt and the profound impact of early credit decisions, empowering small business owners to seize control of their financial futures.

Our conversation dives into understanding profit margins and the critical role of informed hiring decisions. Focusing on key financial indicators, especially in marketing and investments, we uncover strategies beyond mere cost-cutting. Learn why raising rates and maximizing profit margins can significantly enhance your business's profitability. This episode also highlights the importance of aligning your marketing efforts with your most profitable services to sharpen your competitive edge and achieve sustainable growth.

We round out the episode by laying a financial framework for long-term success. Through rigorous analysis of balance sheets, revenue streams, and expenses, we advocate for a bottom-up budgeting approach and cash flow forecasting. These tools equip business owners with a comprehensive understanding of their financial health, allowing for strategic adjustments. Finally, we explore the importance of community among legal professionals, encouraging listeners to connect with our podcast for ongoing resources and support. Together, let's build a thriving community, fostering leadership and growth in your firm.

Reach Danielle here:
Website: https://4cornerscfo.com/ 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/4CornersCFO 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/4cornerscfo/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-hendon/

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My team and I are adding new content weekly so you can be intentional about your growth and development each week.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Daniel Hendon, to the show today. Daniel is the founder and owner of Four Corner CFO, a firm offering financial advisory services to small business owners on a scale that fits their company and budget. Coupling her decade of experience in corporate finance and accounting with her passion for small business owners, Danielle brings the benefit of big business financial analysis to entrepreneurs. Now, instead of helping corporations increase their share price, Danielle gets to help business owners increase their personal livelihoods so they can leave a legacy and a lasting impact on their community.

Speaker 3:

I'm excited to have you here, danielle, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Any chance I can get people to even think about money or look at their numbers, I'm excited.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. We all think about it. I don't know that we all look at our numbers very often.

Speaker 3:

It's easy to stick your head in the sand, but that doesn't really help you get where you want to go.

Speaker 2:

No, that's absolutely true, and I'm experiencing that. I hired a bookkeeper this year because I just ran out of time to do it and I found a couple of mistakes I made and luckily, somebody could fix that for me. So you people are fabulous and I think it's important for you to help us educate ourselves as well.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely and honestly, I'm going to tell you you should never be doing your own bookkeeping. It is. Your time is so much more valuable than what you would pay somebody to help you with bookkeeping.

Speaker 2:

I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree.

Speaker 3:

And, let's be honest, you don't want to right?

Speaker 2:

No, and that's not what we specialize in. It's like you know. Whenever you know, I tell attorneys when they were talking about. You know, if I needed to go to court for something, I'm not going to represent myself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So you know you hire the expert, that's, you're buying time. So I absolutely agree. So let's chat a little bit about so. We all experience debt and so you know whether it's credit card debt or whatever's going on to build a business. So what's the difference between using your debt and then drowning in debt for a small business?

Speaker 3:

So I know that there is a lot of information out there when it comes to personal finance that touts the debt-free motto and it's very easy to get caught up in that and almost have this fear of being in debt, because we all know what it feels like to drown in it. Personally, I don't think I know anybody that hasn't maxed out a credit card at some point in their life, unless you were born into money Right. So that shame and guilt and anxiety and overwhelm and all of the mental burden that goes with drowning in debt tends to be something that we carry around and attach to debt in general. But if you really take a step back and look at it, the difference between using debt and drowning in debt happens when you start and it's all about intentionality. It is whether or not you went into this debt intentionally, with a purpose and a return on investment, or if you had to swipe the credit card a because you weren't thinking about it. B, because you didn't have a choice, or c, it was just yeah, you weren't thinking about it. C is a you grabbed it, you swiped it, it was unintentional and it's that unintentional debt that really carries that emotional burden and doesn't help you it because it grows. Unintentional debt doesn't have a return.

Speaker 3:

On the other side, if you're going into debt intentionally and one of my favorite ways to talk about that is as you grow and scale as a business most people have to hire somebody at some point, whether it's an admin to help you do stuff or a mini me to help earn revenue on things.

Speaker 3:

There is some sort of outsourcing or hiring that happens at some point in your business and all of that takes time. Nobody's going to jump into your business and be able to go right away. You're going to need time to get them to either generate revenue or, if it's administrative, they're hopefully generating more time for you to generate revenue and there will be a return because they're hopefully generating more time for you to generate revenue, and there will be a return because they're either going to save you time or they're going to make you money. But that return is not going to happen right away and in order to get there, you might need to go into debt to be able to pay that person and then, when that return comes in, you can pay off the debt.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so that totally makes sense and like, I'm not sure if it's still happening, but when I turned 18, I got offers of credit cards from everyone I mean JCPenney and you know, and as I understand it, when it comes to credit reports, you miss your one day later than JCPenney credit card. It stays in your credit forever.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's all, don't pay it now all the free money in the world until you start feeling like you're drowning in it. And, let's be honest, there's a big difference between. So intentionality is the difference between like the good debt, bad debt kind of conversation.

Speaker 3:

But when it comes to the burden that you carry, the format of your debt can make a world of difference. If you think about a vehicle payment, which is a term loan, versus a maxed out credit card for the exact same amount, I guarantee you are stressing way more about that maxed out credit card than you are about that vehicle payment, because you know exactly what it's going to be every month. It's not growing and you're not thinking about that total number as this thing I need to pay right now this month right and and yeah, and you're not.

Speaker 2:

There's nothing at the end of it. You know it's like it's it is and I get to say my, my feeling about credit card debt started and you know you get a cover card with three grand on it or something, and you're 18, you have you're like I can go shopping then and they have you know, and back then they came updating myself, back then they came with checks.

Speaker 2:

So you know it's just ridiculous and you look at the interest rate so I can understand. You get it it is. It can be overwhelming, but I do like the idea of looking at the positive aspects of it and and actually using debt to build because there is a return. Very cool. And does that play into a business being bankable? And why would we want to be bankable?

Speaker 3:

So yes and no, you don't have to have debt to be bankable, but if you have a lot of debt, it could affect your bankability. My do you want to be bankable? Is kind ofable. It depends on your goals for your business. There is one thing I do recommend for every business that involves debt, and you do have to be bankable to get it.

Speaker 3:

So a line of credit is a form of debt if you're not familiar with it where you can take out of it as you need to. It's not something that's going to automatically deposit in your bank account when you go get it. But if you need a short term, like that situation with hiring somebody, you need a short term bump in cash that you plan to pay back pretty quickly. A line of credit is perfect for that. It is debt and being bankable means you pretty much have to go get it when you don't need it, which is counterintuitive for all forms of debt. When you go to get it if you really need it, it's going to be a lot harder to get. But if you're in a good position now and you don't think you need it, now's the time to go get the line of credit or to build those safety nets, and that's the other thing that I love about a line of credit.

Speaker 3:

We have all been through some crazy years over the last decade and, if nothing else, it has taught us that you never know what's coming. You never know what's coming and inevitably in business you are going to hit that bottom out stomach sinking moment. And when you do, if you don't have savings and you don't have a line of credit, you are going to reach for every single dollar you can grab, even if it's not a good idea. What a line of credit does in that scenario is it gives you enough space and grace to think straight and make good business decisions because you know the bills are still going to get paid. Yes, you're racking up debt, but you can pay that back off because you're making good decisions in that time frame to come out of it ahead.

Speaker 2:

On the other side, so now, if I get a line of credit and I don't need it, so things are going really well and I'm like we're golden right, but I'm also looking at scaling. So you suggest a line of credit, so I go get it, what happens? Does it just?

Speaker 3:

sit there this, but you can use it and be like, oh, I'm just gonna go dip into it for a little bit and then we'll pay it back next month, almost like when you go get a credit card with the intention of paying it off. But you just want those points. As long as you stay accountable to yourself and to the plan and the intentionality, you can go dip into it, pay something, use it a little bit, pay it back off the next month and you don't have there no pain, no pain from any of that. There's no interest, there's no worries.

Speaker 2:

Okay, cool. So just you're showing the bank some activity so they don't turn it off, because if something were to happen, so there's no interest.

Speaker 3:

Not if you pay. So it's like your credit card If you pay it off right away, you're not going to see interest. If you don't pay it off right away, there will be interest, but it is 90% of the time less than what you would see on a credit card Right, because I think the average credit card percentage is 28.7% interest it's crazy.

Speaker 2:

It is absolutely crazy and yeah, just was watching the thing about Visa MasterCard today. It's just shocking how expensive it is and don't even take a cash advance. It makes it even more.

Speaker 3:

Yes, and I mean you could play the credit card game. I know people that have and you bounce around to who can I trade this to and get zero percent? But that's exhausting.

Speaker 2:

It is, it is and having to and that's something that no one ever wants to. Spend that much time moving that around. Just have a plan, you know, and work on that. In that thought and hiring a bookkeeper one of the things that I'm bugged into so I help attorneys market and grow with marketing what I've had come up to me before is I need to talk to my bookkeeper before I can buy that or invest in that right. What do you think is an alternative to that? I mean, how do you feel about that?

Speaker 3:

That statement. I hear it often, so I want to normalize those of you that say that it is totally okay. But it makes me cringe a little bit, because I never want a business owner to feel like they are not in control of what they're doing. Yes, there are the moments and as a CFO, I have clients that'll be like yeah, let me check with my CFO. I'm going to be honest 90% of the time it's not that they need to check with me, it's that they need time to process. But if you truly feel like you have to check in with somebody else, it means you don't understand your numbers or what story they're telling you. And my goal with every client we work with is that they understand the numbers they're looking at and the story that those numbers tell, because they should be the ones making the decision. I never want to make a decision in somebody else's business. I want to give you all the information you need to feel confident making that decision, but the decision needs to be yours.

Speaker 2:

Right, you have to look at it as an injection handling, but there's just nothing to go with whenever someone says that it's like okay, but I do agree that it's. You know, you should know your numbers and you know, at least have a vague idea, if you don't know down to the dollar, of what's going where and what your availability is. So that's quite interesting, because I always thought that was interesting. When someone says let me talk to my bookkeeper, I'm like how does your bookkeeper feel about that?

Speaker 3:

Well, and so usually when somebody says that they want to come talk to me as their CFO or someone on our team, when they're making a big purchase, it's about return on investment. So we want to make sure, especially with marketing, that we're creating an expectation for return on investment, so we have something to value and measure against and we aren't just throwing spaghetti at a wall and hoping it sticks. So with marketing, especially what I tell people when we're reviewing their expenses and we see marketing there because in our expense review and you and I talked a little bit about kind of profit levers in a business and in those profit levers, one of them is cutting your costs. But you don't want to cut, you don't want to take away money that's making you money. So when it comes to an expense review, a big part of that is which of these are investments and what is your return on investment.

Speaker 3:

And with marketing specifically, you have to give it time, and that's what I tell all of our. You are not going to see this right away. Same thing with employees when you hire a new employee we just talked about it you have to give it time to return on investment, but you want to set a timeline and a goal, and if we're not seeing that, then we need to pivot what we're doing, whether that's different marketing efforts, different you need to pivot. If it's just going money down a hole, that's not going to get us anywhere.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and the National Law Review actually published a document that said it explained the percentage of your goal revenue, not your current revenue. But say you want to reach X goal depending on your practice area, you would. You should be investing 8% of the goal to have a small increase up to 17% for aggressive growth. But if you're doing less than that, you're looking at possibly staying the same or contracting your business. So you know, making it smaller. So it is interesting. But to go with a marketing firm that doesn't have any reporting that you can't see. We have a thing that says you know, if you can measure it, you can track it and see what works and make adjustments, and so absolutely so let's talk about cutting things now. So if the listeners feel like they want to cut everything possible, what are some of the profit levers that you think you can pull for the profit margin?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so cutting things is actually only one of three profit levers that every business has, and it's honestly the last one. I recommend we look at at your rates and make sure that you are charging enough and charging what you're worth especially if you've got flat fee services, because those are sometimes really hard to get a grasp on and making sure that you're covering the profit margin, you're getting the profit margin you want out of it. So the first profit lever is raise your rates and honestly, in this economy it's an easy one to be like yep, cost of living. Sorry guys, here's the new rate.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Speaker 3:

Second one is also sitting in revenue, but it's a little bit cost related. So the second one is knowing your profit margin by service stream. So a lot of times we will have attorneys come to us, We'll have law firms come to us and they've got one legal services line. They've got a whole bunch of information in, let's say, clio, but all they've got in their financials is one legal services line that tells you nothing about your revenue. I want to know what's in there. I want to know what the revenue generating costs are. How much are you paying your people to then generate this revenue? What are your profit margins by revenue stream, so that we know what's the most profitable? Because when you know what's the most profitable, that's what we want to put our marketing dollars on. That's what we want to sell. Go, sell your most profitable. Yes, you've still got other things, but you want to sell the most profitable. That's where you want the most money going, because it's going to give you the biggest return on investment.

Speaker 2:

Right, and if you're like, say, a family law attorney, and your most profitable is child custody, yep, right, so you've got so. Then what you would want is you wanted to see contested divorce, uncontested divorces, all of these and align basically and see which one is the most profitable, because once you get a divorce in, you have the opportunity to sell these other services, same with different practice areas. So I like that idea. So the question would be is how many of the listeners are actually separating that?

Speaker 3:

out and on the flip side, if you look at your least profitable and I would venture if you're not on top of it, it might be some of your flat fee services. But if you look at that least profitable area, how do we optimize profit? What can we do to get better utilization, better efficiency, better like? What tools? What systems? How can we make this more profitable? So, instead of investing marketing dollars, because it's already very profitable, you would invest operational dollars to make it more profitable, and it changes how you want to spend money there.

Speaker 2:

And could that be something like bringing in a paralegal to do the footwork, because I mean they do most of the work anyway.

Speaker 3:

Instead of paying your associate $70 an hour, you might be paying a paralegal $35 or $40.

Speaker 2:

Right, okay, that makes a lot of sense. Let's see. And when we're talking about the financial information and hiring, okay, what are the things that we need to look at?

Speaker 3:

that'll help us predict when will we can afford to hire that's a bit of a tricky one and the answer the traditional accounting answer it depends. But I will say this in my experience with law firms and I'm trying to think through all of our clients, because if I say this wrong and I'm inaccurate, one of them is going to come get me In all of our experience with law firms, you guys don't ever seem to have a problem with pipeline. So it's almost never a bad decision to hire. It's just figuring out what the right hire is. And the key here especially if you're a smaller I don't want to say solopreneur, but you've got like a paralegal and maybe you're looking for an associate the biggest key there that I want you to remember is it's not just their cost, it's your cost in training them.

Speaker 3:

So it is really important to A make sure you're hiring the right level. Do you need a paralegal? Do you need a legal assistant? Do you need an associate? Do you need an educated, experienced that's what I'm looking for an experienced associate like a senior level person. And what is your investment in them going to be? To train them? Because if you're not and this is getting a little bit into the HR side, but I know so many of our clients struggle with this hiring process, making sure that you're hiring somebody that fits all of what you need. You are going to spend so much time and training and performance conversations and you are a highly billable person and I don't want you spending all of your time in that, instead of working either on the business getting new clients or in the business billing out whatever your $500 an hour rate is Right. So remember what you're going to have to invest in time, not just money, for that hire.

Speaker 2:

And would you think you also should, before looking at maybe an associate, perhaps an admin person to handle your front desk stuff?

Speaker 3:

Oh absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that might be the first position to get that stuff off your plate and have someone else Someone else taking the calls and doing your intake is absolutely critical and I would even venture most of our clients some of them don't.

Speaker 3:

Most of them go paralegal before they go associate, so they'll hire a paralegal to help them personally with the workload and then there's still just too much for them to do and it becomes okay.

Speaker 2:

Now we need to look at a mini me, an associate that can do some of what you're doing. Okay, and you know the Better Business Bureau says that 67% of phone calls that go to small businesses are go unanswered.

Speaker 3:

So you know the front desk person, or someone that could take those calls because the attorney is not going to have the time to do that. Yep, I will say I talked about, like I don't know that any of our clients are struggling from a pipeline perspective. But one of the key indicators to yes, I need to hire is if you're having to push your consults out more than a couple of weeks, you are probably in a place that you're going to need more help than you've got.

Speaker 2:

Good point, yeah, so your calendar is too booked out, and then you've got a calendar time to work on each case as well.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because if they can't get you quit, especially in the attorney field, if they can't get you quickly, if they can't get on that consult, they're going to go find somebody else.

Speaker 2:

Right, and we all have Google Exactly Well. So, thinking about your experience with big business, what's your big business framework that can help small business owners generate and remain operationally profitable?

Speaker 3:

Oh gosh, we're going to see how quick I can go through this one, because I could spend 20 minutes just talking about the framework. Basically, we go from balance sheet to budget and cash flow, and I know most of our clients come to us wanting cash flow. But we want to make sure we understand your budget before we start forecasting cash flow, because they will influence each other. So we go I'm going to go through this really quick. We go through the balance sheet to set the foundation. I want to make sure your bookkeeper is reconciling everything, because the balance sheet is what tells us your P&L is reliable. If it's not reliable, we don't want to go look at revenue and expense.

Speaker 1:

So balance sheet first.

Speaker 3:

Then we go through revenue and we do that revenue streams exercise. We were kind of talking about what are the revenue streams? What changes do we need to make? What are your profit margins? Then we go through all of the expenses. We call them non-revenue generating, but it's basically your operating expenses below that profit line and we want to know. We put them in one of three buckets.

Speaker 3:

So they are either required to run your business, like a cell phone and internet they are a personal perk the things your tax person told you to run through the business. One of my favorite examples that I tell everybody my kids are on payroll. They are not the most value added component of my business but they are value added to me. So they're there and it's defensible and they do stuff. And then everything else is an investment in your business. If it's not required, it's not a personal part, it's an investment in your business and you need to make sure that it's returning on investment. One of my favorite examples to give in the attorney space is CLEs. Everybody needs to get CLEs. Your required cost for CLEs and as a CPA I feel confident that I can say this is probably a couple hundred dollars to go get the most boring CLE you could possibly find and you can get it all done.

Speaker 3:

It's not going to be fun. It's not a value added, but it checks the box for the required CLEs. Not a value added, but it checks the box for the required CLEs. If you are spending thousands of dollars on a conference, along with the time that you put into that conference, there needs to be a return on investment. You need to be implementing things that save time or make more money in your business.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 3:

So then we go balance sheet revenue expense. Once we've got all of those three covered, we build a budget and we do what I call bottom-up budgeting. A lot of accountants and cfos do top-down budgeting how much do you want in each of these buckets? I want to know what you're actually spending. So we've already done that return on investment conversation and we go line by line and we build it from the bottom up, Because then when we get to the fifth part of the framework, we are going to look at budget to actuals in a very detailed fashion. I want to be able to say Marilyn, what happened to your cell phone bill this month? I don't see it and it was in the budget and you'd be like oh yeah, we put that on the credit card and I forgot to connect it. And then we have this whole thing that we realized needed to be there.

Speaker 3:

So those types of conversations come up when you do the bottom-up budgeting and you do your budget to actuals. And I want to say really quickly for anyone listening the reason budget to actuals are so important is because the goal of a budget isn't to actually hit the budget. The budget is just a roadmap, it's not a restriction. The goal of a budget is to understand why you're not hitting the budget. If you went over budget on revenue, I want to know what marketing you did, what conversation like how do we do that again? That's a great thing, even if it meant that you went over budget on marketing.

Speaker 3:

If there's a good return on investment there, let's keep doing that yeah so understanding the story your numbers tell you is what really happens in that budget to actuals. And then, once you know you've got good budget because the result of budget to actuals, when you've got a difference you have the opportunity to change your budget, which is essentially opportunity to change your budget, which is essentially going to change your expectations for the year or to make a change in your business, so you can get back on budget. And then we know we've got this clear plan for budget for the rest of the year. We can use that to do the last part of our framework, which is build out a cash flow forecast. We don't believe in using cash flow statements straight out of your accounting system because they mean next to nothing to most business owners. So we forecast your cash, just like your budget.

Speaker 3:

What's the bank account balance? What did we get in sales? How much did we put out in payroll? What did we spend on the credit card for all the other expenses? Oh and, by the way, let's make sure we're accounting for any debt, profit, distributions and savings for taxes and emergency funds.

Speaker 2:

Uh-huh, Savings for taxes. That's the big one that gets left out a lot it does Well, this has been a lot of information. It's been very enlightening. I've enjoyed this conversation and I hope our listeners have picked up some really good nuggets here.

Speaker 3:

What is the biggest takeaway that you hope our listeners will get? If you are not looking at your numbers, even if you're afraid to see what the results are or you think it's not going to be what you want it to be, go look at them, get some help understanding them so that you can make changes in your business, to go where you want to go. Otherwise, it's just going to keep repeating what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Like the links quicksand. Okay, I know our listeners are probably going to want to connect with you, maybe have some questions for you. Where can they reach you? Where's the best place for them to reach you?

Speaker 3:

We are going to have a landing page just for you guys. Very simple, easy way to contact us contact form, quick download. You can get, and it is going to be the number four, not the word, but the number four corners cfocom, slash, leadership and law.

Speaker 2:

Oh, fantastic, I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much and again, everybody go to that landing page. That'll be the link, will be in the show notes and you'll definitely benefit from having a conversation with Danielle. Thank you so much, danielle.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having me, Marilyn.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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