Leadership In Law Podcast

39 The Podcast Lawyer® with Gordon Firemark

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 39

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Ever wonder how a fascination with theater lights can lead to a successful career in law? Join us as we chat with Gordon Firemark, the podcast lawyer, whose journey from sound and lighting roles to becoming a leading figure in media and entertainment law is nothing short of inspiring. Gordon's story is one of passion, pivotal moments, and personal sacrifices, as he shares how a professor's advice led him from the theater to the courtroom, and eventually to the world of podcasting. Along the way, he talks about the transition from litigation to transactional law and how stepping back from his community theater commitments allowed him to prioritize family amidst a bustling career.

Gordon's insights into the transformative power of podcasting as a marketing tool are not to be missed. Learn how his podcast, Entertainment Law Update, has been instrumental in establishing his expertise and building an invaluable network of referral sources. The conversation extends to the emergence of user-generated content as a powerful marketing tool and the legal considerations that accompany it. Through Gordon's experiences, we touch on the role of local podcasts in community building and highlight success stories like Tom Fox's compliance and local podcast network.

In this episode, we also unpack the complex legal landscape surrounding user-generated content. Gordon stresses the importance of transparency in sponsored content and how podcasters can navigate the intricate web of intellectual property rights. From the necessity of guest release forms to the challenges of podcast branding and naming, this discussion offers crucial advice for law firm owners. Finally, we underscore the importance of community support and the resources available at lawmarketingzone.com for those looking to harness the power of podcasting for professional growth.

Reach Gordon here:
https://firemark.com
https://gordonfiremark.com
https://youtube.com/gfiremark
https://entertainmentlawupdate.com
https://legitpodcastpro.captivate.fm

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, gordon Firemark, to the show today. Gordon helps creatives, artists, entrepreneurs and others achieve the dream of getting their messages out and making a meaningful impact in their craft. He has practiced media, entertainment and business law since 1992 and is often referred to as the podcast lawyer. A podcaster himself, he's been producing and hosting the Entertainment Law Update podcast since 2009. And, for the past few years, legit Podcast Pro, a live stream and audio podcast to provide podcasters the information and tips they need to stay safe, achieve impact, influence and earn income with podcasting.

Speaker 2:

Gordon is the author of podcast blog and new media producers, legal survival guide and creator of several online courses for creatives. His undergraduate degree in radio, television, film and experience in live theater production informs his thinking on all things legal. In addition to his busy law schedule, he teaches law at Columbia College, hollywood Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising and Pepperdine Law School. Tune in to Gordon's live stream morning show Gordon in the Morning on Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube every weekday at 8.30 am Pacific time. I'm excited to have you here, gordon. That's very impressive.

Speaker 3:

Well, thank you. That's just a little bit of an outdated bio because I'm no longer doing that Gordon Morning show, but other than that, pretty accurate. So thank you for that.

Speaker 2:

No worries, I'm excited to talk to you. Definitely a little technical challenge is getting here, but hey, we're here.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm excited to hear about your background in theater before you went to law school. How did that kind of make your trajectory?

Speaker 3:

ground in theater before you went to law school. How did that kind of make your trajectory? Well, you know, my love for theater starts when I was about five years old. I was in kindergarten and I went to a K through 12 school in Massachusetts where the high school kids were doing a production of Oliver and they brought the kindergartners in to watch a dress rehearsal. And you know, they sat us down and taught us you'd be polite and don't talk and you know clap when the appropriate and all that. And then the lights go on and the curtain goes up and I was hooked. I was mesmerized.

Speaker 3:

From that moment on I knew I was going to have a life in in related to the performing arts and I got into the technology. So by the time I was in high school I had been this is having moved across the country to a new school and all those kinds of things I'd been getting into some low grade trouble with kids, friends of mine in the in the middle school era and the school principal pulled me aside and asked me to run the lights and sound for the school variety show and that led to other things and in high school I was the school sound guy, not the AV club guy the sound for the theater program. And then my senior year in high school. I was actually junior and senior year. I was working in a local community theater as the sound and lighting person and decided I was going to be a theater major in college and got there and was rudely awakened to the fact that it was a performance program and I was not a performer. So I eventually shifted into the radio, television and film end of things.

Speaker 3:

And it was only in my senior year in college that a professor sort of pointed out that I had this aptitude for the business and legal side of things. And while I was applying to film school to become a filmmaker or producer or something, I also applied to law schools and I got into law school. I didn't get into film school, I actually didn't go right away. I took a year off and came back to LA and started working in the film television business. And just as I was sort of ready to make a jump and find something else newer to do, the Writers Guild went on strike and it was going to be a long one. So okay, law school sounds better and better and there I am.

Speaker 2:

Do you still do much community theater or theater at all?

Speaker 3:

I did up until maybe five years, a little before, maybe six or seven years ago, as my kids were starting to get older and I wanted to be with them on the weekends and the evenings it was, you know, had to make some choices.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, it's definitely a commitment. I was involved in community theater for several years and it is really cold but really really stressful at time.

Speaker 3:

And also we had moved from that theater where I still am on the payroll. I'm the lowest employee number on the payroll there but we moved far enough away that it's a bit of an ordeal to get there and the community I'm in their group of people is already sort of locked in.

Speaker 2:

Yeah right, interesting. Well then. So going from that, how did you get from theater to law school? How'd you get into podcasting?

Speaker 3:

So I finished law school and started working at a small litigation boutique doing entertainment and media-related litigation. The litigation wasn't really for me. I was good at it, but I brought it home and was argumentative with everybody around me and just couldn't turn it off. So I really wanted to be in transactional practice. I ended up hanging out my own shingle doing a transactional practice and after a few years I was sort of looking for ways to grow and market my practice and I landed on content-based you know, education-based marketing, with a blog at first and an email newsletter.

Speaker 3:

And then I discovered podcasting, sort of at the dawn of that technology, when a fellow I was following as a media personality, leo Laporte, started a podcast of his own and I started following it. Oh, that's cool. And with my background as a sound guy and my geeky interest in computers and technology, I decided, oh, I'm going to try that and set up a podcast. Well, I was guest on a few shows and then that sort of solidified it. So I started my show Entertainment Law Update in 2009. So that's 16 years ago now and I've been going strong ever since.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic. And so you did that to basically to market your practice, or I mean, were you looking for it to grow your practice or were you doing it for any other reason?

Speaker 3:

first, Well, I mean, obviously it's gratifying for me, and we started Entertainment Law Update with the idea that it would position us as experts. I have a co-host that I found then, but also, yeah, it was easier than writing a blog every week.

Speaker 4:

Yes, definitely.

Speaker 3:

And you know it's fun and we've kept it going strong all this time. It also, I think it makes me a better lawyer just from being tuned in and attending to the legal issues in my field of entertainment law and teaching them every week, you know, makes me, forces me to stay on top of things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, they say you know, you learn, you read, you listen, you watch the video and then you teach, and it just reinforces it.

Speaker 3:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Do you do a lot of interviewing of different people in your area, or how do you, how do you use your podcast for marketing?

Speaker 3:

So as far as how I use it for marketing, it's just something to promote every, every month when that show comes out. Every month when that show comes out, a notice about it goes on the blog, goes on the email newsletter, goes on all the social media and just reminds people of who I am. And here we are. But we've got a big audience of mostly other entertainment lawyers who have become pretty good referral sources for me, actually because my practice areas are a little different from the average entertainment lawyer. Practice areas are a little different from the average entertainment lawyer.

Speaker 3:

I do theater law and digital media, podcast and YouTube and those kinds of things and influencer stuff. But you know the film and TV lawyers who, who know themselves and don't do that kind of work, will happily refer the stuff and it works out pretty well for me. But I don't do a lot of interviewing because it's a lot of work. I admire and respect those who do. But our show is me and a co-host doing a sort of NPR news roundup kind of a style show where we're covering eight or 10 cases or legal news stories that have emerged during the previous month and it's more of an authoritative position than an interviewer.

Speaker 3:

I've done interview shows here and there over the years and enjoy it. I know it is a good way to get expertise by osmosis I guess you could say by friction rubbing against them right. And also it can be terrific for making the interview subjects aware of who you are and what you're all about. That can lead to their referrals and that kind of thing, but that's just not the format of our show.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think we've been chatting with a couple of other people that I interviewed about. You know Atari should have a podcast, even just like a very Tom Fox. We were talking about having a local podcast and they talk to local people and it's just a community. It could be a community building thing Again to get their name out there, like you're talking about, and I find that podcasting helps build an incredible network of people.

Speaker 2:

And I learned a lot from from talking to other people, so it's really kind of fun, I think. But Tom's really crushed.

Speaker 3:

He's got a great the compliance network and the local network that he's doing and he's a friend and a colleague and a client, so I'm thrilled to hear that yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he was great to interview and I just I found it interesting his whole network and then the local thing. But it is important, I believe you know, to build your community and having other attorneys do their own podcast. So you've leveraged a few practice area. And what do you when you talk about user generated media, are you so? We've seen user generated videos? What are you thinking about user generated media? Where do you think it's going?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, interesting question. It's hard to sort of define user-generated media because it's used in multiple contexts, Certainly when it's you know, if you post something on YouTube, you're the user, you're generating that content. And then there are basically getting their customers to post social media clips or entire videos that sort of promote their product, I guess more like a testimonial context. But where is it going? Well, I think that as the playing field has leveled out so much and it's become relatively affordable for people to make media and share it, I think that the nature of our information and economy is changing and I think UGC is going to become user-generated content is going to become more and more prevalent as a marketing tool. So those immunities that I was talking about become more and more important.

Speaker 2:

Now thinking about that. So there's you can go into. There used to be websites or you could go to Fiverr and hire somebody to do a testimonial. Well, you can't do that anymore, but you can go to UCG sites and have something about your product or your service or just have an influencer or someone create or not even an influencer, but someone create a video about whatever you want them to talk about. What's the legal implications for the creator of that type of content?

Speaker 3:

Well, it's the same concern for the creator and for the brand that is asking or looking for that UGC content. There needs to be a clear and conspicuous disclosure, transparency, essentially around the nature of the relationship. If there's a, if it's paid content, then it needs to say so and in the same form and medium. So, if you're you know, just like you hear, when people have an affiliate relationship, when they recommend a product and they say, if you buy it using my link, I'm going to get paid, something that's part of the FTC's disclosure requirements, and the same is true for UGC. It needs to be clear that there was a financial relationship. I made this video because they paid me to or are going to pay me.

Speaker 3:

Right this video because they paid me to or are going to pay me, or they sent me the goods for free, or whatever it is, because that's the grain of salt that viewers need to use when consuming this stuff well, now I see that tag, I agree, and I know on affiliate sites and now you know, thinking those two together, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2:

I see on facebook or sorry, tiktok, the paid partnership or something like that label on it. But I have seen what's clearly UCG content that's being used as Facebook ads or that sort of thing that they're reading a script about it or they're talking about essentially a testimonial but they're not saying anything about. They paid me to do this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, they're supposed to, about they pay me to do this. Yeah, there's, they're supposed. I mean, if, if the post is a sponsored post, if the brand is using that content and advertising using it, then then the brand is. You know, usually it says sponsored or something like that yeah, it does, it does yeah, it'll say sponsored, but it's supposed to be more conspicuous than that. I think we just haven't seen the ftc catch up with that level of right now.

Speaker 3:

They're focused on the influencers and and they're coming after podcasters a little bit, and the YouTube community has already been under a lot of scrutiny, I think, as we see more and more of the yetis TikTok you know, if I made a TikTok about this product that I love and then the brand grabs it and pays me for it after the fact, then I didn't know I was going to get paid to make that disclosure. So it's a tough call. I think that as long as the brand is explaining that it's an ad, then we know.

Speaker 2:

So with podcasting, you obviously work with podcasters and creators. What types of things should we, as podcasters, look out for? To you know, like I know, some podcasts you have to sign a release form, but a lot that you don't. So what should we be cya-ing for our podcast?

Speaker 3:

well, I'm going to actually take credit for that release form, because that has been my crusade for quite a number of years now is that every podcaster should have their guest give some sort of a release. That is, you know, consent to the recording as well as consent to the publication of that recording in all media if possible throughout the world, that there is no compensation and that the podcaster is the owner of the content of Maryland. You hereby have my consent to record us and publish it and you own it, and I got no say. Once we're done, we're done with the call and it's yours to do with as you please. That's just sort of general, you know, sort of ownership protection for the podcaster.

Speaker 3:

I think that the big issues that I teach podcasters about and try to work with them on is that it is sort of a business, whether they're using it as a marketing arm for business or business in and of itself. That's something that needs to be considered, and so there needs to be some business structure when working with others. Then there's the team relationships. That may be partnership or co -production or a joint venture of some sort, or it may just be a matter of having an editor who's working on the show. All of those people should be signing contracts so that it's very clear who owns this and what people should expect out of things. The intellectual property issues are, of course, sort of the most well. They're the sexiest and funnest to talk about. You know, when folks incorporate a piece of music? Or have you heard people recite a poem on their podcast and end up hearing about it from the poet? Oh no, those kinds of things need to be cleared and licensed, and everybody thinks it's just like radio, but it's not.

Speaker 2:

Radio has special blanket licenses in place that don't apply to podcasts, because it's not transient media place that don't apply to podcasts, because it's a, it's not transient media, and I there was a time in tiktok where certain labels took all their music off, and you know. So there's those music tracks that you can put on your videos yeah we're gone for a while and then a lot of the taylor swift music disappeared, and then suddenly it came back well, after some lengthy negotiations between tiktok and the and the music companies.

Speaker 3:

That apparently improved the bottom line for the music companies, but whether or not it does any good for the artists is still open question. But yeah, that's youtube and tick tock and instagram and I guess facebook all have some established relationships with the record labels and the music publishers that give them the right to have their users use this music and in content generated for the platform. Where it becomes tricky is when people try to use that stuff beyond the scope of the single platform and so, yeah, so there's intellectual property issues there. There's the trademark branding side of things. In the podcast world it's not at all unusual to see two or three or four shows pop up and you try to use the same name or same title and usually I do get there is unhappy about that yeah, I have seen doing some searches for some friends podcasts and you're going wait.

Speaker 2:

There's like three and luckily I knew the picture, but they were like three of the same name yeah, so we'd really try to avoid that confusion.

Speaker 3:

I recommend to my clients that we register a trademark for the podcast title, sometimes for the logos as well, or the cover art, and sometimes there's segments within the show that have a distinctive title or something that we want to register and protect, and that way we have the ammunition to put a stop to it as soon as those other shows pop into our consciousness.

Speaker 2:

Great idea.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and then there's the monetization side of things. When folks are using a podcast as their business, as the core of their business, we need to make sure not only do they have a promise that they will be paid, but also that they can actually collect on promise, which is, surprisingly enough, not always so easy.

Speaker 2:

What are some of the ways that you can monetize a podcast?

Speaker 3:

Well, advertising is the most commonly thought of. You have to have a pretty good size audience to make any real money with advertising. But you know, just because the rates are based on thousands of views. So you need 10 or a hundred thousand views per episode to to see real money coming from it.

Speaker 3:

But a lot of folks use it as a well. There's the UGC kind of approach or the affiliate marketing is another approach that if you have a meeting, a modest size audience who actually buy things that you recommend, you can make money on the commission from the sale. And a lot of folks, especially in the expert world coaches, consultants and professionals use the podcast sort of to market their own products and services, whether it's their legal or professional services or online courses and information products, and that's worked out pretty nicely for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but you have a mastermind and coaching group that you do for attorneys.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I have a couple of online courses for entrepreneurs and podcasters as well. So the folks that are maybe not inclined to hire a lawyer and cash out a big retainer are inclined to do some of the legal work for themselves, and I thought, well, why don't I teach them how to do that?

Speaker 2:

So Nice yeah, so tell us a little bit about your mastermind and your coaching program.

Speaker 3:

So the mastermind really stemmed from a program, a podcast that I had called More, better, faster, where I was really helping creative folks and and lawyers to just sort of stay focused on their goals and get out of their own way with all the mindset stuff that we let get in our way, and that evolved into helping a few you know really friends who came to me and said, okay, how do we, how do I get this thing accomplished or what here's my you know?

Speaker 3:

So we'd set, setting goals and figuring out strategies and then the accountability, really just sort of turning on the you know the BS detector and helping folks sort of see where they're, where they have blinders on, and that kind of thing for lawyers is something that I've created with a colleague, my friend, mike Prywis, and I have a program called more, not more, better, faster, called a complete counselor Sorry, that's the lawyer facing one and it's very much the same idea is let's help you figure out who you are and what you want to be when you grow up and then how to get there and and maintaining a balance in in your lifestyle is is, I think, important. So we're not focused on I want to be a 10 million, a hundred lawyer law firm owner.

Speaker 3:

We're focused on the smaller law firm lawyer who wants to, you know, have dinner with his family more often than not and and spend some time with family and enjoy life as well as having a successful, thriving law practice. I refer to it as having a lifestyle law practice rather than a law practice lifestyle.

Speaker 2:

That's it. That's excellent. Yeah, cause you're just the 80 hour week or 160 hour weeks are just. It's just crazy to to keep. You could only work so hard or put in so many hours.

Speaker 3:

And and you, you of money and ultimately, when life is over, you can't take it with you. I would rather live and enjoy my life and trade some of that money for the other good things in life, I guess the family and relationships and having a good time.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I mean especially the fact of being able to have dinner with your family.

Speaker 3:

Exactly that was tremendously important to me when I started my practice. You know, the first 10 years I was single and that was great. And then I met and married a wonderful woman and we had kids and I I took a step back and I said you know, this is what's really important Making a legacy. Create it. My legacy will be these children. I want them to be good, responsible, thoughtful people, caring and that kind of thing, and the best way to make that happen is to be present and model it for them. So that's what I've done.

Speaker 2:

That's fantastic. I love that. This has been really excellent. I've enjoyed the conversation and the touching on the podcasting and the theater work. I'm going to have a look at my release form in the theater work.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to have a look at my release form. Well, my release form is available for free for anybody who wants it at podcastreleasecom.

Speaker 2:

Oh really, I'll go have a look at that.

Speaker 3:

Now I have lawyers looking at it and criticizing, scrutinizing it.

Speaker 2:

Well, I'll definitely have a look at it, because I know it's something that's in the conversation that some people do, a lot of people don't, so I just want to make sure that you're covered. What would you think is the? What was the biggest takeaway that you would like our listeners to take away from this episode?

Speaker 3:

Well, for listeners of this show as lawyers. I think that what I was saying about the lifestyle is really important because you know you can be the greatest lawyer in the world, but if you don't have the family around you and enjoy love and, frankly, just a good mission in life, I think you're missing out.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for your time. I know that listeners are going to want to connect with you or follow you. Where's the best place for them to do that?

Speaker 3:

Well, you can find me on almost all the social media as G Firemark, gordon Firemark on Instagram, but I don't do much there anyway, and firemarkcom is the website blog. Okay, and listen to Entertainment Law Update too, why not?

Speaker 2:

Definitely Y'all subscribe to that podcast and I'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes for you.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you again for your time.

Speaker 3:

Marilyn, it's been a joy. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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