Leadership In Law Podcast

41 Get It In Writing! with Mitchell Beinhaker

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 1 • Episode 41

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Unlock the secrets of legal success with Mitchell Beinhaker, a seasoned business lawyer and estate attorney who has dedicated over three decades to guiding business owners through the complexities of legal landscapes. Discover how Mitchell transitioned from the corporate world to create his innovative virtual legal and consulting practice, empowering entrepreneurs to overcome legal hurdles. You'll gain valuable insights from his book, "10 Ways to Get Sued by Anyone and Everyone: The Small Business Owner's Guide to Staying Out of Court," which equips business owners with strategies to avoid common litigation traps.

Imagine the chaos that could ensue from a handshake deal gone wrong. Mitchell underscores the vital role of clear contracts in safeguarding your business interests. We'll unravel the misconceptions around text messages and emails as binding agreements and stress the necessity of formal documentation to prevent disputes. Learn through Brian Williams' compelling story, a case study on the pitfalls of relying on memory, and why meticulous record-keeping is crucial in any professional setting.

Are you prepared to lay a solid foundation for your business's future? We explore the core elements essential for success—product, marketing, finances, and people. Understand the importance of a well-thought-out exit strategy and the value of maintaining precise financial records. Whether you're building a lifestyle business or planning an eventual sale, Mitchell's insights will guide you through strategic planning for long-term success. Don't miss the chance to join our Leadership in Law podcast community, where shared experiences and resources await to support you on your legal journey.

Reach Mitchell here:
https://www.beinhakerlaw.com
https://www.mitchbeinhaker.com
https://linktr.ee/beinhakerlaw
Book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3B8v4cu

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, mitchell Beinhacker, to the show today. Mitchell is a business lawyer and a state's attorney who runs a solo legal and consulting practice representing business owners, entrepreneurs, executives and professionals. Through his 28 years of experience, mitchell has handled business development, marketing, firm management, along with business transactional work for clients of the firm. He has extensive experience with corporate governance, commercial transactions, real estate and risk analysis. Using his years of practical experience, he drafts contracts, negotiates purchases and can manage outside counsel for any corporate situation. For business owners and executives, he creates and implements estate plans, along with succession plans to help companies continue for future generations. Co-author of 10 Ways to Get Sued by Anyone and Everyone the Small Business Owner's Guide to Staying Out of Court. It's available on Amazon in paperback and Kindle, and the Audible version is coming soon. I'm excited to have you here, mitch, welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, marilyn, I appreciate it. Let's update a couple of things I realized. I am 32 years practicing All right. And since I've sent that to you, the book is available in Audible.

Speaker 2:

Oh, fantastic, all right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, tell us a little bit about how you got started, and then I want to dive into that book Sounds interesting.

Speaker 3:

How I got started with law. Yeah, so I I've always been around, I've always been more entrepreneurial, you know, all my life growing up. But my dad was in insurance sales so he was always independent type of guy. And so when I came out of law school cause you got to do that first, obviously then you know, I worked for some firms. I worked for some different people, but it was always kind of like doing my own thing.

Speaker 3:

I was in corporate for a while and when I, because of my contacts in the insurance and financial industry, all the business planning that I do and estate work and stuff, it kind of fit with, you know, a natural market and I like doing that kind of work, so you know, I guess by 2001, something I really started out on my own, kind of like in-house somewhere and a side practice. And then the practice grew and then I left the company because I was just too busy with my side work and, you know, just grew from there and then in 2019, I think that's when I really broke up my firm left my partners. I basically run a virtual practice. Now I have a couple of support people. They're all virtual and you know, lean mean very few cabinet space anymore. It's, all you know, paperless for the most part.

Speaker 2:

Oh, fantastic. But by always having the entrepreneurial drive you knew, eventually you would be working on your own now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I just have trouble working for other people. When I was in, I lived in Columbus for a couple of years with my wife. I worked at Nationwide in their advanced planning you know department and yeah, corporate was like difficult for me. I'm always been kind of a rebel that way.

Speaker 3:

Even growing up in high school and college, I always had jobs that like businesses I would start. I wouldn't like work for somebody. I mean I used to bartend and do different things but in terms of like getting a job in the summertime, all my friends would get jobs working at companies, not me. I was out detailing cars or, you know, starting another business or whatever I was doing. It just yeah, just can't sit still I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I've always been the same way. I just I don't like working for people, I like to do things done and do things and, just you know, make my own destiny, I guess.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, right, and you have control of your own. And you know, look, there's upsides and a lot of down. None of my friends like that. They didn't like the freedom of worrying about where the next piece of business comes from. I've just gotten used to that. After 32 years of practice, you know that's sure.

Speaker 2:

That is the stress that goes along with that, so you would help. It sounds like everything from starting a business to m&a's or succession planning now with all that comes along like.

Speaker 3:

Let's talk about your book how to Get Saved by Anyone and Everyone and I know it's so easy to get involved in litigation in the States. But you know it's it's a. It's not a story. It's a guide for people to use to do the things that they need to do to run their businesses and stay out of trouble. Because that's what I do, like I don't litigate but I do correct things.

Speaker 3:

So I'm brought in all the time because people's businesses are failing. They need to get out of their lease, they need to get out of their equipment leases, deal with vendors, whatever the issues are. And then I find out, you know, they don't have a business plan, they haven't been using like fundamentals, they don't have an agreement with their partner who they're now breaking up with, and there's nothing in writing. So a lot of the book was about that and I also interviewed a lot of other attorneys who do things that kind of like, you know, around the periphery of business work. They're a commercial litigator, they're a, you know, they're a divorce attorney, they deal with employment law. Some of that I do and I don't do, but I don't litigate and stuff like that. So it was kind of an opportunity to also interview those people and say hey, you know, if you're, my client comes to you and has this problem, what should they know about? You know dealing with it and staying out of trouble and you know things like that.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, and that would definitely be a great book for any business owners. We'll definitely include links to that, as you have on your shelf.

Speaker 3:

So when you screw something up you can look back and see what you were supposed to do I guess afterward- Exactly Now, when you're putting together a business plan or helping them do their business plan.

Speaker 2:

are you looking future about not being sued whenever you're putting that business plan together?

Speaker 3:

Well, I mean, as a lawyer, yeah, that's always my kind of focus. You know, if I'm looking to put a contract together for them or working on a partnership agreement or whatever, you know the part of the agreement that's always missing when a non-lawyer, when a lay person does it. Even lawyers I have friends that have gone to law school and they're not practicing lawyers and they try to do these agreements with their partner themselves. They always leave out the part how do you resolve disputes? What happens if you, if things break down and a contract is then not really worth much? If it only works when things are good, then you don't really need a contract. Everybody's on the same page. So you know, that's that's usually the issue.

Speaker 3:

So you know, yeah, I'm always looking at how do you protect your assets, how you structured rights so you don't get sued. What are the rules you got to follow? You know how can you make it reasonable so there's not too much onerous rules on the owner, because a lot of people don't follow the rules. They try, but they don't do it for a living. So, and then your contracts like you know, things break down like you, you, things break down Like you. You'll have disputes with your partner and you'll have disputes with vendors and customers and whatever. What do you put in place to deal with those things? You know?

Speaker 2:

So when you're thinking about taking on a partner, obviously you want to you know plan the exit or some sort of resolution before, while everybody's happy.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Because you don't want to talk about it at the end, because it'll never balance out.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

What are the things that you specify and put in that type of contract to envision the future?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So there's probably two agreements that you know anybody in business with a partner or more should have. Right, they should have some sort of an operating agreement or bylaws or something like that that kind of says OK, this is what I do, this is what you do, this is my responsibility, this is your responsibility, this is how I can bind the company and you can bind the company. Things we have to vote on, things we have to agree on things we don't have to agree on all those types of things. So those are often missing all the rules. They have day-to-day operations but they have nothing in writing or it's very loose and they have to keep up with that. It's not just you just write it once and just walk away, right. The other part is something called a buy-sell agreement, which is an agreement.

Speaker 3:

Now, there are parts of a buy-sell agreement in your general operating documents, but for the most part they don't address issues like if you die, if you become disabled, if you're getting sued by someone else, how does that affect the business?

Speaker 3:

Or if you just want to walk away at some point. You know you're like listen, I'm done with this, I don't want to do this. How do we break up, and so that second agreement really has to be put in place, maybe not from day one, but certainly within the first. You know six to 12 months once from day one, but certainly within the first. You know six to 12 months once you see that the business is viable, and deal with those issues when, if you want to walk away, or if you have to walk away, or if you can't physically work or you die, you got to deal with it. Now, this person's family, what do you have in writing to protect yourself, you know. So all those issues have to be need to be addressed ahead of time, because I have more crazy situations where they weren't, and you know it comes down to who has more money and who has more leverage, and that's not a position you really want to be in.

Speaker 2:

So no, but that's true. It's like money changes people. Having that set what you want, where you're both in a good place, is the best way, or one or two or however many partners there are yeah, and you were saying one to just never go with your gut. So when you're talking about like we talked about these contracts and we just write, you know basically what we're expecting, this is what we plan on doing, but we don't cover all the bases. What, what would you suggest as far as not following your gut? In what instance does that work better for you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, I think people think they call me. They go, you know my partner's doing this and that they can't do that, right, I mean, that's illegal. So there's no penal code that deals with business situations. You don't go to jail for breaching a contract with your partner. The question is is there damage and what's the damage, and is it quantifiable, and do you have anything in writing and so forth? So you really can't do things on a handshake. I mean, people do it, but it's a really dangerous way, you know, to do business because you don't have any rules Like.

Speaker 3:

There's some situations where I'll give an example when you have disputes, you could go to arbitration or mediation. You know now, some attorneys don't like arbitration. I, I'm partial to it, I think it's fine. Like arbitration I, I'm partial to it, I think it's fine. Some businesses lend themselves to a scenario where you want to use arbitration because you want it to be private, you don't want it to be out in the public, right, and and you know where do you bring a lawsuit and how do you? You know so all those types of rules that there's not some book that says, okay, we'll go to chapter 17. Now that you're having an argument with your partner and these are the rules, like you have to make them yourself, right. So that's the problem with with uh, you know, kind of doing things on a handshake, on a you know that you trust the other person and and I'm not suggesting that people are not trustworthy, let's go on the assumption that they are trustworthy.

Speaker 3:

But people remember things differently. You know, part of the book talk about memory. I interviewed a memory expert about how people remember things and you know, generally we will remember things completely different and it doesn't matter. We went through the same you know situation but we remember it differently because our minds aren't organized. Like you know, very few people have, you know, photographic memories and they can. Everything's organized in their head. They just pull it out of the folder and our minds are like boxes of stuff with a lot of sticky notes in it. The sticky notes are stuck to the wrong things. My sticky notes of stuff suck to certain things because I have personal experiences. Yours are stuck to other things because you have personal things going on in your head and we both swear that we were at this place doing this and you're like no, I was in Chicago. I know because I was with my, you know, my friend Susie and you were with.

Speaker 3:

I'm like, are you sure? And you know, you find that you're both wrong and that's common, it's very common. So when you operate a business, if you're going to do it for profit, not for fun, and it's, you know, you're really, you're risking money and you're risking your time and all that kind of stuff. We're all adults. You need to do what adults do or what they should do, right? So, yeah, you have to put things in writing and you have to have the rules written down so you and I don't have to worry about what's going to happen with our memories. What are we going to remember, remember wrong, you know, what are we going to be sure of? Where? You're like adamant, mitch, I know that's what we discussed because of these three reasons. And I'm like, well, I know that's not true, marilyn, because these three reasons. And well, you know, we won't agree, and it's not that you're you're right or I'm wrong. We just, you know, we're attached to whatever's going on in our head. So that's the you never.

Speaker 2:

I like the idea. I like what you said about our post-it notes are connected because of our. It's a different thing, because of our experiences that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2:

So again, preparing for the exit in the beginning, when everybody's on the same page, is definitely the best way to do it, and I think nowadays that we are more, more things are virtual. I think it's even more important because you're not sharing an office with that person. So, if you are running a virtual firm, making sure you have all the T's crossed and the I's dotted so that you're both on the same page, if you're not going to be working the same location, do you think that's even more important?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think it's very important and a lot of people say even attorneys are like call me, let's talk about this I go no, I want to put it on email, not because I'm difficult, but because then I have things in writing that show our discussion and I can save it and I can go back to it and refer to it and say you know what? I'm not sure what Marilyn and I talked about. Let me check Now. I may not remember it that way, but if I have it written down I'll be like well, I guess that's what happened. You know, I guess we agreed to and and you know you'll stick with it and court, because somebody's being difficult.

Speaker 2:

You have something to submit to the court and say well, your honor, this is what we decided on this date. She sent me an email that this. I responded back. Here we are and I keep almost all the email that's. You know, anything related to business I I'm just not one to delete, right like that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah keep paying for data. You know it keeps going, but that's yeah, and and you know but. But I will make a comment though, because I do. I do get people that call me and they say, oh, you know we don't have a contract, but we get texts going back and forth or whatever. That's really a contract, right? Well, the general answer is no, that's not a contract. And the reason it's not a contract is it is evidence that the two parties had dealings together. Right, it's evidence that you agreed on something. Okay.

Speaker 3:

The problem is is that it doesn't negate or exclude, like oral discussions, right? So so the other party says Mitch, I know we put that in writing, but don't you remember the conversation we had two weeks after that that we talked about this, this and this? Well, there's no agreement that says listen, this is a far final agreement and anything if there's changes, we got to put it in writing, or it doesn't count, it doesn't say that. So then you have all those peripheral things for people to bring up. So, yeah, so don't think that your text chain is magically a contract. It's evidence of a contract, but it doesn't create a contract. So a lot of people do that and they come back to me Well, I have all the texts, I have all the emails. Okay, that took start, but it doesn't mean the other person's not going to say, well, don't you remember we had this conversation here's on my calendar when we spoke on this date and we you told me this, this and this you're like and maybe you're not even sure you know.

Speaker 2:

So it creates problems it does again the memory thing again. Yeah, that makes sense, because a lot of times we think or I've heard of people talking about yep, it's in text, so we've got an agreement no way.

Speaker 3:

No way because there's oh, it's always open to questioning and reliability. And just because you have it in writing there doesn't mean you didn't talk about something else before or there's something else you agreed to that wasn't just in the text. It just doesn't mean you didn't talk about something else before or there's something else you agreed to that wasn't just in the text.

Speaker 3:

It just doesn't doesn't solve that problem. Yeah, you know. Yeah, so I think I talked about in the book. You remember there was a time brian williams was on like he's back on the news, but he was like emasculated for this.

Speaker 3:

He was on some show it might have been david letterman, it might have been you know the, it might have been you know the Tonight Show, whatever and he talked about this experience he had during one of the war, the Gulf Wars, like covering something. His helicopter was shot down and this and that and this. And the pilot calls up later on and says he wasn't even on the helicopter with us, he was on another helicopter. It was not shot down, it wasn't that day in this and that. And he looked stupid. I think it was today's show. And he didn't even. And instead of him saying well, I must've remembered it wrong, he like apologized for like lying, which he I'm sure he didn't lie, he just remembered it wrong. It later turned out, by the way, the pilot was wrong too. He didn't remember something correctly either.

Speaker 3:

But you know, if he would just admit to the fact that you know, our minds are not perfect and I just screwed up, then, you know, people would have been treated differently, but that was a situation where it was such a traumatic experience. His mind was sure that we were shot down and this, and that Now maybe he had heard it so many times he'd experienced other things and they kind of melded together and then he was sure that this happened and that's what happens other things and they kind of melded together and then he was sure that this happened whatever. And that's what happens. That's how work, you know. So don't leave it to chance that your business is not going to have problems, because it will, and don't leave it to chance that things will just work out when you're arguing with your partner and maybe you're right, but they have more money or whatever, and then you're stuck.

Speaker 2:

Yes, very good, I agree with that. And what are the four main things that we should so thinking about? You know the beginning and then the end of a business, whether that's going to be an M&A or a sale or whatever what are the four things that you want to make sure everyone includes in their business plan.

Speaker 3:

Yes. So, and if you look at these templates from score or from any of the other, you know SBA, they're usually like 10 to 12 sections if you break down a business plan for all these different sections. But to me there's like four main categories, right? One is a detail of your product or service, right, what are you offering through your business, your service, your product, products, whatever it happens to be right, and get that as detailed as you can, it's going to change obviously. The second part is the personnel part of it and I think a lot of people don't realize, don't explore the issue of. You know, maybe there's some things that I can't do, like this is a great business idea, but I don't have all the skills to do this and how am I going to get them and are they affordable and do I know somebody can help me, and so forth. So that's the people side of it. Then there's obviously the marketing of it. You know, how am I going to market and promote this business? How am I going to develop business? And I mean even part of that. Is there even a marketplace for this business? I have so many people that have great ideas but nobody cares it. Just, you know they have this great solution to this or that and they find out, you know, like nobody wants to pay for it. To you and me it doesn't make any sense, but that's just the way people are. So you have to kind of explore those things ahead of time and that's usually where, like the rubber meets the road.

Speaker 3:

People don't do the marketing research upfront. They don't ask the question enough the clients and customers will you buy this? What will keep you from buying this? What do you like about it? What you don't like about it? The best business owners that I've met, that have been my clients that I've met, that have been my clients that I've interviewed on my podcast, are ones that are constantly asking these questions of their customers Constantly. They're never comfortable with the fact that they think what the customer wants is correct, and my best clients and business owners know that what they think is wrong nine times out of 10. So whatever the reason is that your customer's buying your product or service, you're probably wrong. As to the reason, part of it may be true, but if you go with that and, just like you said, go with your gut and say, oh, I believe that you're probably going to fall flat on your face when something changes in the marketplace and you're not aware of Some algorithm on Google or something in the marketplace, whatever.

Speaker 3:

And then the fourth thing which nobody wants to ever deal with is your finances. What are your pro forma finances look like? What is your actual revenue expecting? What are your real expenses for running this business? It's not just cost of goods sold, it's also having a staff and having people working for you. If the business doesn't work unless you work for free, then it's not a viable business. Obviously right, because then you can't pass it on to someone else. Nobody wants to work for it. So those four areas you got product, product or service, you got people, marketplace, marketing and finances, financials. Those are four. If you do those four, that's a good start. You can keep going from there and start by, you know, expanding on them as time goes on.

Speaker 2:

That certainly makes it more approachable. I like that. One of the things when you talk about the marketing and what you think someone is going to do, like the algorithm change obviously another one just happened on Google. Yeah, when we're doing marketing for clients, we're like, okay, what keyword do you think people are typing in to find you? Then we find out what they're actually doing and they're typically different. Right, you're doing your own seo, that sort of thing, and you're doing it without research or without really looking at the market. You're going after the wrong words, right? So what are your lead flows?

Speaker 3:

and even if going after the right words. You don't even know if they're right. It's just total random. You have no way to test it. Yeah, exactly, people don't test. That's a big problem. But if they start with those four core areas, it's a good start to have something that's digestible, to put things on paper, not be overwhelmed, and can start by using some decent principles to develop their business, whether it's viable or not. Like make your mistakes before you lose all your money and bought 10,000 units and they're in your garage. Like that's something you want to avoid, right, and I know business owners that have done that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I have known those as well. Now, in those four steps you're not putting anything as far as your exit plan. So your exit plan being a partnership or whatever, would that be like? Obviously the exit plan is going to be in that contract. Where does estate planning for business owners come into? Is that completely separate if we're talking partners?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's separate. It's definitely, especially if you have a family and you know people that rely on you. It's definitely a part of that. I think that at the beginning, you want to make sure you know your wills and your healthcare directives and your powers of attorney things like that are are firmed up. If you have, especially if you have young children or whatever as you do, your partnership agreement. Make sure they're coordinated because there's some rules that can run awry if you don't do things properly. But in terms of exit strategy, I don't know if I would do that at the beginning, but I would do this.

Speaker 3:

If you keep that in mind when you start the business, you're going to make different decisions than if you run a business that's a lifestyle business, that you don't plan on exiting or selling or anything like that. So if it's a lifestyle business, you want to minimize your taxes, you want to maximize your cash flows, you want to, you know, live as best you can and pay your bills and so forth. But on the books, on paper, it may not look like a valuable business, but if you have an exit strategy in mind, you want to sell it someday. You want somebody to take it over. You're going to want to pay some taxes and show some profits and you know, have viable books that show that the business has viability. So they can, you know. So somebody will put a value on your business.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah, no, I'd buy that, you know, four times earnings or whatever. But if you, if you're managing your business to lower, reduce your taxes, show no profits, then it's not worth anything. That's right. So yeah. And then as you develop and the business gets better, you know two, three, four, five years. Now you're like, hey, this actually may be a business. Then maybe you start want to start putting some plans in place, because it takes five to 10 years to really get prepared to exit, sell whatever.

Speaker 2:

It is a long process. I was just talking to someone the other day that then it took almost a year for the process to complete yeah, and that's working pretty hard and that's just the sale you mean, right? Yeah, just getting prepared could take you a couple years if you haven't been keeping it in mind yeah, and I think that's one of the things some coaching groups I know are telling people at the beginning these things need to be in place, otherwise you're going to be scrambling to make them you know, get the reports together.

Speaker 2:

So being prepared, whatever you see, if it's not a lifestyle business, whatever you see, having that in place so that you can easily step aside.

Speaker 3:

Right, exactly, because then what's happened is you cut, you bring a business broker and to help you sell the business, and they start looking at your books and trying to add things back in to create profits. To say, oh well, you know, he's been paying for his whole family through the business, cars and phones. You won't be paying for that when you buy the business. So it's they call it magic math. So now, all of a sudden there's profits when you didn't show up before. And you know, can you rely on that, can you not? I don't know. You know, due diligence becomes more difficult because it's not like little. Businesses aren't audited. They don't audit in financials. So you have to rely on the books and records that this person is providing you and more often than not they're wrong not necessarily purposefully, but usually they're wrong and you start out the business. You're like but this doesn't make sense. Why are we making any money? And you discover that their books were a little off.

Speaker 2:

You know, yes, I mean hiring a bookkeeper is not an incredible expense and it's definitely worth it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, definitely you got to keep your books clean, so Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I know that we're coming to the end here. I don't want to take up too much of your time. This has been great information about the business plan and contracts and such.

Speaker 3:

What would be the one thing that you would want our listeners to take away from this episode of what they should or should not be doing. Well, we talked about a lot of stuff, right, writing a business plan, contracts. But an overall thing put things in writing, like do not be afraid to have a contract with your customer. You know, if you're a supermarket, obviously you can't sign a contract with every customer that's going through the checkout counter. That's a different business model. But if you are dealing with people where they're hiring you to do work on an ongoing basis or a project basis, you have to have things in writing. Some industries require it. But if you don't have it in writing, you're going to run into trouble. And I've had people say to me oh, I'm dealing with a customer like how do I just whip out a contract? Well, if you look at it that way, right, you're not going to be comfortable at all.

Speaker 3:

But adults do things like that, like if the court's not going to say oh well, mitch, I mean, I understand, you were uncomfortable, you didn't want to show a contract, so therefore, you don't have a contract, we'll let that go. Doesn't work that way. They're going to say, well, did you have a contract? Okay, well, I don't know what to tell you. You know, responsible adults do responsible things. You have to work it into your repertoire.

Speaker 3:

As to you know, as a lawyer, I have to use retainer letters, right? So I'll say to you okay, well, let me send you a memo and I'll send you the information I need. Then I'll send you a retainer letter, you'll sign that retainer letter, pay me a retainer and then we'll get started on the work. Or maybe I'm missing some information. But other industries, you know they're kind of like you said, they're kind of like you know, go with your gut, shake the hand loosey-goosey and run us into problems. So put things in writing, make it a habit of what you do Business plans, vendors, contracts, customers whoever you're dealing with, then you understand.

Speaker 3:

Exactly, it's a weed check.

Speaker 2:

Exactly and you can say I was lucky not to sign it, I go.

Speaker 3:

well, don't you want to know that now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. You know, yeah, I mean, it's disappointing if you're in a growth mode and you're thinking this person's a great fit, and then they show their true colors, you just have to go. Okay, I dodged a bullet on that one.

Speaker 3:

Right, exactly, you didn't go 12 months down the road and then found out that they were just, you know, milking you for ideas or whatever it was, and had no intention of really, you know, moving forward. I've had more clients are raising capital, for example. They get somebody, they're committed, I'm in for 250, whatever, ok, when you finally get to the pay, ok, here you go, sign here, send over the money, everything stops. Well, you know, I'm not sure that people are big talkers until they got to sign something. So, yeah, I want to know that as early as possible.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I like to know if I'm wasting my time, but yeah, you've got to build rapport with people, but don't spend a year and a half building rapport Find out, I'm trying. If you're willing to put you know, go to Inc. You are, so why shouldn't they be right? Agree.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Cards on the table. Well, this has been. This has been really good. I want to.

Speaker 3:

I want is H-A-K-E-R, no C, and I also have mitchbeinhackercom, which is where you can find the podcast, the book. There's a couple of eBooks on there. We'll put a link to this probably. I try to keep the videos up on that one too. And also I have a LinkedIn profile. You can find me on LinkedIn. I think my VA puts stuff, I believe, on Instagram and Facebook and stuff like that, so you can find me on most of the platforms.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic, awesome. Well, this has been a pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Thank you.

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Marilyn Jenkins

Host