Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E61 Using AI as a Tool for Firm Growth with Nile Frater

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 61

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What if your SEO strategy focused less on vanity metrics and more on client acquisition? In this game-changing conversation, Nile Frater, founder of Masse, reveals how his agency grew from zero to $1.5 million in annual revenue in just 12 months using a revolutionary human-AI hybrid approach to content creation.

Unlike many digital marketers who either completely reject AI or rely on it too heavily, Nile shares a nuanced middle path that combines the best of both worlds. You'll discover why asking AI to generate entire articles produces mediocre results and learn specific techniques to leverage AI for what it does best while preserving the human elements that make content truly exceptional.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Nile unpacks advanced AI prompting strategies, including how to use persona-based prompting to dramatically improve outputs. He introduces listeners to emerging AI tools beyond ChatGPT that offer unique advantages for legal content creation, including DeepSeek for prose writing and Perplexity for reliable research with proper citations.

But the most valuable insights come when Nile breaks down his client-focused SEO strategy. Rather than chasing traffic for traffic's sake, he demonstrates how to identify keywords with clear purchase intent and create content that answers potential clients' questions thoroughly. He explains the critical difference between domain authority (built through backlinks) and topical authority (becoming the definitive source on specific topics) - and why the latter has become increasingly important in Google's algorithms.

For law firm owners looking to grow their practice through digital marketing, this episode provides a masterclass in creating content that actually converts. Whether you're just starting your SEO journey or looking to refine your existing strategy, Nile's practical advice on establishing niche expertise through comprehensive content will transform how you approach online marketing.

Reach Nile here: 

https://masse.marketing

This episode is sponsored by Wealthy Woman Lawyer® 

Wealthy Woman Lawyer® is a law firm growth strategy and business coaching service exclusively for women law firm owners. Ready for a practice that funds your dream lifestyle and gives you time to enjoy it? 

Visit https://wealthywomanlawyer.com today.

Join our private community, Law Firm Growth Guild, Your Shortcut to Marketing Mastery and More Clients at
https://checkout.lawmarketingzone.com

Ready to level up your law firm marketing? Book a FREE Discovery Call with Marilyn Here: https://lawmarketingzone.com/bookacall

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, niall Frater, to the show today. Niall is the founder of MASS, an innovative SEO agency that specializes in high-scale content campaigns for cutting-edge tech companies in Series A, b, c and beyond. In just 12 months, mass has grown from $0 to over $1.5 million in annual revenue, recurring revenue, leveraging a unique human-AI hybrid approach to SEO.

Speaker 2:

Niall's journey in the tech world began in NoCode Tech, a hub for no-code movement that was acquired by A16Z-backed Stacker in 2022. With a background in engineering and coding, niall has consistently pushed the boundaries of SEO, focusing on delivering tangible business results for startups and tech companies. Before founding Mass, niall held a senior position at Lloyds Banking Group in the UK, where he led various innovative projects, including recruiting 250 engineers and designers in a year and navigating the interest division during the COVID-19 lockdowns. He also runs Concrete Capital, a micro PE fund that acquires small content and educational websites. Originally from Glasgow, scotland, niall now resides in Andorra and continues to be at the forefront of SEO and AI, helping startups scale quickly and efficiently. I'm excited to have you here, welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you very much. I appreciate that I'd forgotten some of those details about my life.

Speaker 2:

Very cool. Now I see why you moved to Andorra now after going through all you went through at Lloyd's. That had to be a lot of stress.

Speaker 3:

It was very stressful. Yeah, Andorra is a much, much quieter pace of life.

Speaker 2:

Nice, nice, yeah, andorra is a much, much quieter pace of life Nice, nice. So I want to talk about how you do you know where you get started with the SEO and AI because what you're doing is pretty incredible for startups and the scale of which you're building SEO content.

Speaker 3:

Yeah for sure. I mean, you know, I think a real advantage we've had is we all started our agency in 2023. And so we've kind of got to build an agency from scratch with AI already in existence. And I think there's been a lot of people who have tried to adapt AI to their agency, and that's a fair bit harder than building with AI in mind. But you know, from day one, we really just sent them to figure out how do you get the best out of AI.

Speaker 3:

You know, I mean, there's a lot of people who just use it for absolutely everything literally prompt ai, get an article, paste that online. And there's a lot of people who just say I'm not going to use ai, I don't believe in it, I think it's cheating, etc. And you know we don't think that's a great approach either. So, yeah, from the, from the middle, we've always just tried to balance, you know, I mean I believe ai and all the benefits of ai and how you can bind that with all the benefits of humans and really get the best thing in the middle. And that's kind of brought us to a fairly unique model where we write, you know, really high volumes of content but it's that real hybrid seo approach of you know ai creates it, but humans make it perfect and make a publication ready.

Speaker 2:

Okay, great, yeah, because the pendulum does swing very far. I do like the idea of combining the two, because that's one thing that we work with is we use AI in a lot of instances and it does help with content and but being able to, you know, actually taking the time to review that and make sure that A it makes sense, because you know it also maybe doesn't give actual case data, so you have to review the data. I know that whenever we're working on presentations, it'll come up with ideas where you just need to put a case study in there. So very interesting, so you're doing it. Where you're using prompts, are you using prompts that create multiple articles at a time and then you're going to go through and work with each article individually as a person?

Speaker 3:

No, so we try and do the opposite. You know, one of the big problems you get with AI is, if you ask it to do it too much, the quality of that output drops really, really quickly. The kind of technical term for that is almost a context size. You know, the more that you ask the AI to produce with less input, the worse it's going to output. On the flip side, if you can give it a lot of context and ask for you know relatively less text, in return you're generally going to get better input. And you know what you mentioned over case study I think is one of the best examples. If you can give it a ton of existing information, existing references, existing case study, details of what you're looking for, you know anything at all. If you imagine that you were sitting down with a student and writing and telling them hey, this is what I want you to write about and you had to give them all the research. The more that you can do that, the better that the eye is going to perform. And so for us you know we don't even just introduce or try to produce individual articles we will actually chunk an article up and maybe go section by section quite often, instead of having AI produce a full article, we'll use it really as a tool for writer's block. You know we'll say, hey, I have to write an article about, let's say, divorce law in Utah, for example, and you know I'm going to go into that with some understanding of divorce law, as it's almost the entirety of the. You know the united states, but there are going to be specifics there that I don't know and rather than ask you to generate an article on that, what I actually might do is say, hey, give me some talking points here. If I'm going to write an article and do that by myself, what should I write about? So we'll try to chunk it up as much as we can and we'll try to kind of find the balance between.

Speaker 3:

You know, use ai for the, the non-valuable information, right? So me just learning about divorce law and utah, I'm not going to learn anything valuable there that I can't just google or find somewhere else. The real value add comes when I do my own research, put my own opinion and etc. Gpt, any ai platform is terrible with that. You know what?

Speaker 3:

What llms do, by definition, is take the average of everything that has ever been written on a topic and give you the average, and so when you spit out an article, it's going to be average. So the best thing that you can do is chunk that article up so that you're going to get the best results. Use AI to get the table stakes, the hygiene information that you need to just be able to competently understand and rewrite something and then, ideally, write the rest of it yourself. And you can do it with AI, especially if you chunk it up and then piece the article together. You'll also get writing tools, kind of AI-powered tools. You might have heard of platforms like Jasper Copyai this type of thing, where they will generally get a slightly better output than using something like ChatGPT, but most platforms suffer from the same thing.

Speaker 2:

Trying to generate a full article at once is really difficult and very rare rejection of results that you want and a lot of times it's not very readable either, and that's one of the things we strive to make something that people will be able to understand and read.

Speaker 2:

Now, granted, articles for seo don't necessarily, you know, they're not written for everybody to read, but you still never, you know, some people might want to read them.

Speaker 2:

But when you say that AI takes like the average of everything out there I was listening to someone speak the other day that made a very good example of that If you ask a classroom, a kindergarten classroom, including the teacher, the same question and they all answer the question, ai will take all 30 students and the teacher as 31 total pieces and average that and give you the answer that came as average, which is clearly not an answer you want, right, so it was. I felt that was very, very interesting visual of saying that Now, when we do prompting, we tell AI how to act. Is that something that in your prompting, just kind of thinking how to help people do better prompts? You know, if I'm writing a marketing article, then I want to act as a copywriting expert in the voice of, say, dan Kennedy or something like that. Is that something that you encourage as well, to try to raise that level of information it's going to provide you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean again, the more information, more context you can give it, the better. And one of the things that's both good and bad about about prompting is it's non-deterministic right. You can put the same prompt in twice and get a totally different answer some things that's good. Sometimes, hey, I don't like that output. I'm just going to hit this again and see if it works better.

Speaker 3:

I've been willing to adjust a couple of things, but you know, you can also just really experiment with with almost different personas and for some reason llm respond really well and to different personas. So you could try saying, yes, I'm a corporate expert. You could also try saying I am, you know, a law expert. I am a lawyer and a lawyer specialized in this subject or that subject and really just try almost these different personalities you can. Also you can also tell gpt how to write. You know you can say things like you know, write in a very sort of conversational tone, write very casually, but what I find is actually almost most effective is you can tell it to write in the style of another website or a particular person. This is a poor example, but let's say you want it to write in the style of Forbes and use Forbes editorial information, etc. You can tell Chatsby Taylor hey, you are a law expert writer working at Forbes and you need to produce an article, you know, according to Forbes editorial guidelines, so on and so forth.

Speaker 3:

I think the thing that's hard for a lot of people to really conceptualise is that you know LLMs are trained on literally every single piece of text that is available somewhere on the internet, and so you know people don't realise that you can ask an LLM anything about any book or any TV show, and it's especially impressive with TV shows, because the script for every TV show and the transcripts of it are all loaded into an LLN.

Speaker 3:

You could even do something like hey, write an article in the style of Harvey Specter from Suits, you know, because Jack JBT knows every word that that man has said and every tone indication that was put in the script. So there are a lot of things that you can do. Now you probably don't want to write like harvard specter, but you know there may be other online publications, online websites, other law firms, websites that you like the title of, and you can ask gpt to imitate it, and generally that is going to get you a better result than rock walton, but actually a better result than than. Than. If you try to say, hey, you're quoting, but actually a better result than I could try to say, hey, you're an expert copywriter, you're this, you're that. It's much easier to charge everything. You can just copy something rather than try to invent something, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

That makes a lot of sense. That's really good input. The LLM for those listening is a large language model, by the way, and I just learned not too long ago that you know, we all know Reddit, right? Reddit was it two years ago or a year ago was approached by OpenAI to be able to use their entire Reddit platform to teach ChatGPT, and that is, global conversations on hot topics, obscure topics, all sorts of things, and that entire system was used as part of the learning of ChatGPT, which I found really amazing because it is conversational yeah, 100.

Speaker 3:

I mean it's literally every piece of text out there, every obscure forum. Everything is going to be is going to be indexed and one of the cool things gpt, for example, has got better recently actually citing sources. But there are other. You know we talk a lot about gpt and it's kind of like it's a main tool in my head and that people know about in terms of ai. But there are other tools that are really interesting here. You know, I mentioned this kind of ability to impersonate people.

Speaker 3:

There is a model that came out recently to much con-co-op, called DeepSeek, which is kind of Chinese element model. I believe it's totally free. I don't think it's been blocked yet. I think there's been discussion of it. Yeah, it is particularly good at prose and imitating other writers.

Speaker 3:

We've generally found that deep seek has a little bit better of a content out than something like gpt. Specifically for law, where I think it's most interesting is a platform called perplexity, um, which is a sort of ai powered search platform. Gpt does this now as well, but perplexity is generally better at it and has a better interface, and what makes it particularly good is you can ask a question. You know, tell me about this, tell me about that and it will answer you. But it will tell you the exact source where it pulled the text for everything and it generally does it a little bit better than GPT does. And so if you are, you know, if you're, if you're using GPT to do research, for example're trying to find you know kind of, you can use perplexive to really actually find those citations, and it's a really good way to avoid ai hallucinations and just have a little bit more confidence that what you're, what you're looking up, what you're researching, is actually real and not imagined by gpt.

Speaker 2:

You know right and one of the things that a lot of people use GPT for and we say GPT because I think it was the number one brand that came out. Yeah, it had a lot of money behind the brand when it came out, so I really prefer Clawed. When I'm looking at doing articles and stuff, it feels so much more human written. I mean, it's easier to read the days where you had to give chat GPT a list of 120 some odd words not to use, but you know you can tell there's. It does tend to use more higher education language unless you specify for it. Not to Thinking about the deep seek in the chat GPT.

Speaker 2:

So I do a lot of webinars for my audience and I'm looking to do a webinar that's in probably 20-25 minutes. It's kind of I don't like to make the webinars too long and so putting together what I want to include. I did the same prompt in Claude, chatgpt and DeepSeek to come up with the outline, and DeepSeek went actually a step further. So but all the processes you know the presentation outlines were very, very similar, as you would imagine. But Grand Deep Seat went one step further and wanted to niche the presentation instead of it being a generic AI presentation and once I said, yeah, let's do it for law firms. It literally listed all of the tools by name and website and pricing and categorize them that's available to law firms. So I thought that was very interesting, but the content, the output, was similar, but I used the exact same prompt on each one of them. So but that was enlightening to compare them and see the difference.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's interesting, not even just in the different platforms, but if you look at something like GPT, you know if you're using it. At the top left there's a little section. You can select all these different models and the speed at which they're releasing these new models is super quick. So every model is either smarter or approaches a problem in a new way. There is, you know, they brought out one recently, I think it's called O1. They have a terrible naming convention. I think it's called o1 and it just reasons through problems. It's really not my favorite for the german articles and everyone that doesn't do it very well, but it's very good. It's just reasoning through. Um, you know, if you want to ask it a question or how to approach something, it's really good for that.

Speaker 3:

And then gpt brought out this feature recently called deep research, and I don't know if you've had the chance to try that. It is really good. So GPT will essentially disappear for 10 minutes, up to 30 minutes sometimes, really, really deeply, as the name suggests deeply research a particular topic. It will come back with citations. It will come back with charts. It actually comes back with a bunch of information that you're never going to get from a normal gt sorry, gpt product.

Speaker 3:

What this is really really good for in particular is doing article research or doing seo research. You know, often when we're writing articles we are either doing like a kind of guide around, something like a kind of how-to, or we're doing like a roundup. You know, here are the top 10 tools for law firms who want to market their company. Um, and those can be really really time consuming. You have to look a lot of detail.

Speaker 3:

Gpt normal gpt will often get things wrong because sometimes it will go and do a web search and pull legitimate new information. Other times it's relying on hey, 12 months ago it got trained on the price and periods when there's two, and now that information is out of date. So it's not necessarily hallucinated, it's just out of date. Deep research is much, much better at pulling all that information and you know you can literally just give it a prod. Call me for coffee, come back and it's in front of you. You know it's literally three weeks old, I think. So it's not even really transformed SEO yet, but I think it's going to be a really transformational feature.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. I have not played with that one yet. I am pretty impressed with what a lot of people have done in building their own GPTs and then, outside of that, using Make to try to have things work. And GPT does something, creates a folder on Google or on Drive and stuff like that. But that's kind of getting in the weeds. So let's jump over to the SEO way of, because one of the things that you talked about, you do SEO for focusing on client acquisition as opposed to just traffic. Let's talk a little bit about that. How do you? What's your process in that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah for sure. So, yeah, we, you know traffic is obviously key for any issue growth. You need traffic and all that to be able to convert it. For us, we're really, really focused on traffic that is likely to convert, and what I mean by that is, you know, let's say that you are selling a phone, for example, because it's sitting right in front of me.

Speaker 3:

Best example I can come up with you know, you just google the word iphone. That has so many different intents. Right, it could mean I want to know what the latest iphone is, I want to know what an iphone is, I want to see the price of an iphone, etc. Or someone could google buy iphone. And that intent is so much much queerer. You know they want to purchase an iphone, they want to know the price, all that, etc. Etc.

Speaker 3:

Any, everyone knows, I think at this point that seo is centered around keywords and really any keyword which you know, which someone's going to google. All of these have an intent and it's something that I see people in seo miss so frequently, especially if you're new to SEO, especially if you're not an expert, is you know? You just think up hey, what are? I'm a law firm in New York. What are some of the terms I'm going to look up. Law firm, new York Well, that's going to be pretty hard to rank for because it's going to be so competitive, it's so broad, you know. Do you want a law firm specialised in divorce? Do want one specialized and you know injuries, you know as a as actually you want a law firm who are going to set, help you set up a company. These things are so, so different, and so when you're doing seo, you really have to figure out who your audience, who are the specific people that you sell to best. And you know, by the way, it might be that you are a really broad law firm and you you a lot of different kind of practices and specialities. Great, but pick one of them and start there first. Um, and you know.

Speaker 3:

So this is what we do with our clients. We figure out what is the, the one most niche audience that we can go after and we want to start as small as possible and what we, what we tend to want to do and most of our clients are not so much looking locally, they tend to be more natural firms and so what we want to do there is figure out what is every question that a potential customer might have on this subject. You know we want to. We want to kind of approach that from every angle and that will then give us hey, here are 10 questions that someone's going to have about this. Then let's go and find those 10 keywords that people are actually googling and then let's write some content that is going to answer that and we genuinely want to answer that question. We don't want to kind of say, hey, you should phone us and we'll answer the question, or you should email us. You know we want to answer the question as quickly as possible, right at the top of the article, get into the details and then say, by the way, if you need more professional help with us, if you want to consult in this, now here's the phone number.

Speaker 3:

Um, I think a lot of people get that. They're all way around. You know they think about it in the same way that you would think about can pc or ads. You know well, let me, let me capture the customer and then let me educate them and let me extract value there. Seo is really about giving value up, really extracting value for yourself further down the line. Now, that changes a lot of that with local SEO, which I can get into in a second. But the core of SEO is always let me figure out my buyer, let me figure out what they want and then let me create some kind of experience that helps them. And that's typically going to be content. And that's where AI is super helpful is creating that content, helping you figure out what that particular niche audience wants, helping you figure out what questions they might have. You know again, this research process. That's really good for it and then ultimately, yeah, delivering that value as quickly as you can up front, and then you can worry about capturing the customer.

Speaker 2:

I love that. So one of the things that we coach on in our agency is the FAQs. Like every business has frequently asked questions, every client has a potential client has the same questions, right? So make an article on each one, make a video on each one, and that way you are educating and providing content at the same time. So that's very good. Now with your SEO process, and do you do you actually do backlinks? Are you talking about doing the seo, the articles on the website? What types of distribution are you doing? And I I know you do it in a massive scale, but if you use a little insight on that, yeah, for sure, and it's.

Speaker 3:

You know. It's broadly applicable, both at the massive scale and at the smaller scale, and when you start to hold local in particular, you can get big results with really not a huge amount of output. So you know, for us, first of all, there are two concepts in seo that we care about. One of those is topical authority, and one of them is domain authority. Domain authority is one that I think a lot of people hear more of when they first get into seo, and it's this idea of you know an unimaginable scale of can zero to 100. How much does google view you as an authoritative website? So bbccom, forbescom, these are right at the top of that scale. They're authoritative, people trust them, they're credible, they've decades of history and then, if you launch a new website tomorrow, nobody knows who you are, nobody knows what your website's about, google's never heard heard of it, so on and so forth. So your domain authority is low. The primary way that you're going to build domain authority really the only way you're going to build domain authority is by building backlinks. You know and ideally you want those to be, backlinks from recruitable websites who you know. You're almost borrowing their domain authority. Ideally, you want these to be from relevant websites. So if you're a law firm, you get a link from I don't know mcdonald's terrible example. It's not very relevant. You know, if you can get you know, linked to, from you know an academic lodge or know something like that, that is going to be much, much more valuable. And actually you know the kind of the, the academic system of citing papers, citing you know things and then kind of using that as a measure of how authoritative or how credible was this paper, was this discovery or this insight. That's really the same system that google's trying to use. You know this idea that if you get featured in an academic journal, lots of people cite your paper. Then you are doing well. Google is exactly the same. Other concept is topical authority, and this is one that's less talked about but I actually think is more powerful and it's become, you know, for anyone who pays attention to seo, we kind of had armageddon for seos in september 2023, where google released a massive algorithm update and it killed a lot of really small websites. There's a lot of speculation over exactly what happened there, but our belief at mass and and we you know this belief has powered a lot of growth is that essentially, google started looking less at how good is an individual article and more at how affirmative is this website on a particular topic.

Speaker 3:

So you know, if you're a law firm and you want to talk about, you want to find, you know clients for, you know accidents, you're an accident attorney, for example the best thing that you can do is write everything there is to write about. You know law and examples of what happens if you get in an accident. How much compensation can you see, what should you do when it happens? So on, so forth.

Speaker 3:

You know any questions someone's going to have, kind of what I talked about earlier. You want to answer those questions. You want to cover them in as much detail as possible, and an example I like to give here is if you're a travel website and you're writing about paris, everybody knows that you have to write what are the best restaurants in paris, what are the best hotels in Paris. But what you should be really doing is niching down and writing what are the best restaurants for vegan families, what are the best restaurants or which restaurants have the best desserts? You know really, really get into depth that no one else does, and the more that you write. You know you can go after these keywords that have a volume of 20 people searching for them. You're never going to get very many customers from them, but the more that you write pretty small keywords, the more that Google is going to give you a shot to go after these larger, bigger keywords.

Speaker 2:

And you know whether you're doing massive scale SEO, like we are, or you're doing, you know, really deep local SEO that is always going to be true, and it's going to be true and it's going to be easier the smaller that you are. You know, I love that. I love that. Yeah, you're right. I mean be be very descriptive, be very detailed, and you know, years ago when we were doing starting ppc, that was the thing is buy those buying keywords. You know, buy. And so you're saying the same thing build out the, the content around buying keywords and and be educational about it. I, I love that. Yeah, absolutely. So this is this has been absolutely incredible. I really appreciate the, the detail and the way that you are using AI and building SEO content and for sharing that information with us, and I know that some of the listeners are going to want to reach out to you and connect with you. Where's the best place to do that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so you can find our website, which is mass, that's mass with an E dot marketing, and you can also reach me. I am now at mass-seocom. You can reach me there. I'd be happy to help.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic Now. Thank you so much for your time today. This has been very interesting and I just really appreciate your time, for your time today.

Speaker 3:

This has been very interesting and I just really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. I've really enjoyed being on.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep bleeding with vision and keep growing your firm.

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