Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E63 Never Stop Marketing with RJon Robins

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 63

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What if the key to sustainable law firm growth is hiding in plain sight? RJon Robins, eight-figure entrepreneur and founder of How to Manage a Small Law Firm, shares a counterintuitive truth about marketing that transformed his kitchen-table startup into a multimillion-dollar business serving over 600 law firms across multiple countries.

 RJon, who’s grown his firm by 8,000% since 2009, explains that the feast-or-famine cycle in law firms stems from a flawed view of marketing. Comparing it to the "marshmallow test," he shows how cutting marketing during busy times sacrifices future growth for immediate comfort—with costly long-term effects. 

 RJon reveals that 54% of bar grievances start as management issues—often tied to inconsistent marketing. When lawyers stop marketing during busy times, it leads to dry spells, desperation, and risky cases that can trigger avoidable ethical complaints. 

 Marilyn and RJon unpack the often-overlooked difference between static and dynamic overhead—and why it’s key to smarter practice management. They share strategies for consistent marketing, diversifying channels, and building growth-focused business plans instead of reacting to highs and lows. 

 RJon wraps up with a bold truth: "I would turn off the electricity before I turn off the marketing." For law firm owners tired of the feast-or-famine cycle, this episode offers both the mindset and strategies to create steady, sustainable growth. 

Reach RJon here:

His book:
Profit First For Lawyers Book: https://amzn.to/3DakNNY

LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rjonrobins/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/rjonrobins2
https://www.facebook.com/HowToManageASmallLawFirm
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/rjonrobins/
https://www.instagram.com/howtomanageasmalllawfirm/
Website: https://howtomanageasmalllawfirm.com/
Get a Free Business Plan Guide! For Listeners Only!
https://rjonrobins.com/

This episode is sponsored by Wealthy Woman Lawyer® 

Wealthy Woman Lawyer® is a law firm growth strategy and business coaching service exclusively for women law firm owners. Ready for a practice that funds your dream lifestyle and gives you time to enjoy it? 

Visit https://wealthywomanlawyer.com today.

Join our private community, Law Firm Growth Guild, Your Shortcut to Marketing Mastery and More Clients at
https://checkout.lawmarketingzone.com

Ready to level up your law firm marketing? Book a FREE Discovery Call with Marilyn Here: https://lawmarketingzone.com/bookacall

Leadership In Law Podcast with host, Marilyn Jenkins
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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, mary Wynn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest today, arjon Robbins, to the show. Arjon is an eight-figure entrepreneur, licensed attorney and best-selling author. He founded how to Manage a Small Law Firm at his kitchen table while flat broke in 2009. He has since achieved an 8,000% revenue growth and now has over 600 of the fastest growing small law firm owners in the country as members Operating in multiple countries. Arjan works in the business about 90 days a year and spends the other 170 days launching new and profitable business ventures. He speaks to thousands of law firm owners annually, helping them define the meaning of profit and break free from the mindset that they need to suffer in order to build a profitable business. I'm excited to have you here, john, welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you Wow.

Speaker 2:

Awesome.

Speaker 3:

You know that song, Jukebox Hero.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

There's a line where, years later, he's walking in the stadium through the backstage door and catches a glimpse of himself in the mirror and he's like, oh my god, look how much my life has changed listening to that introduction. I I had to. I had to relocate our, our meeting, our meeting. I was supposed to originally do this podcast from my office, which is down the block from where I'm sitting right now in my art gallery and the art gallery. We recently purchased the space, but it was actually the original office that we launched this whole business from, after the kitchen table. When we finally, a few years later, our first real office was the space that I'm sitting in now.

Speaker 3:

Real office was the space that I'm sitting in now and it's just a little like amazing for me to hear, to be sitting in this space and then to hear that introduction, and I'm looking out the window and remembering who I was back in 2011. When I was sitting in the space, looking out the window trying to figure out how am I going to build this business, what am I going to do.

Speaker 2:

It's pretty spectacular and humbling to think about how much luck was involved.

Speaker 3:

Luck is involved in everyone's success and that's something that I think not enough people give enough credit to how much luck is involved. You make good decisions and good decisions, and good decisions and good decisions, and you take action and you take action, you take action, you take action and you get knocked down. You keep getting up and you keep going and going and going and eventually luck goes your way and bam, you end up with two separate eight figure businesses. Last year, actually, they were both multi eight figure businesses, but, to think about, like, there was a lot of luck involved and there was a lot of just getting up and peeling myself back up off the mat and keep going.

Speaker 3:

And I think that's one of the things that's really discouraging when you see law firm owners who believe that it's all about them and they don't give enough credit to luck or they use luck as an excuse to avoid taking the actions and making the right decisions. And this is going to connect up to something that you and I talked about when we first met, about law firm owners who turn on their marketing, turn off their marketing, turn on their marketing, turn off their marketing. And that just confuses luck, right? That's just like makes it hard for luck to work for you, and I'm talking as if luck, you know, has sentience. It does not, but it makes it hard to really benefit from when luck goes your way Right, and it makes it hard to learn from the experience when luck doesn't go your way, if you're turning it on and turning it off.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, and I think part of that is.

Speaker 3:

This is not what I was planning to talk about today. It's just hearing that introduction and being in this spot unexpectedly because my whole team just grabbed my, my, my, my podcast kit and like ran down the block when they shut the door unexpectedly and, um, I'm just having like one of those moments. I'm sorry. Thank you for indulging that that.

Speaker 2:

That would me. That would have been a funny scene to see, but you know, no, I get it. When construction happens out of the blue, I get it. Talking about that, turning marketing on and off, it's something I struggle with, trying to explain why you wouldn't want to do that. I think a bit of what happens is we're watching other people on social media and you see the great things that are happening and you don't realize that what you're looking at is a highlight reel. You know when you said you'd pick yourself up off the mat. We all have ups and downs. Business is not an all and up and you know, like a hockey stick and stays that way, there's ups and downs and I think when you, when you, the first thing you cut of your're because you're having a lean month is marketing, is cutting off your nose to spot your face, as my grandmother used to say so look there's.

Speaker 3:

There's two different kinds of overhead. There's static overhead and there's dynamic overhead. And unfortunately, most owners of small law firms didn't go to business school. They don't have an MBA, they don't have a finance degree, they don't have a CPA behind their name, and neither do I. By the way, I'm a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks. I went to college. I studied undergraduate was communications law, economics and government. No business, no finance, no marketing none of that stuff. Of course, you know they taught me none of that in law school. But I went to the School of Hard Knocks and one of the things I learned there is that there's actually two different kinds of overhead, which most people don't understand. And because they don't understand that there's two different kinds of overhead, they inadvertently cut the wrong one right.

Speaker 3:

Five movies, like a James Bond movie. You know that moment where it's the red wire or the blue wire, the red wire or the blue wire, the red. You cut the wrong wire. Everyone's going to die. And you know, there's that dramatic moment where you just cut the wire right. Well, imagine if you didn't have to guess, because you knew which one was the red wire and which one was the blue wire, or I should say, you knew what the red wire did and what the blue wire did, right? Right, there's two different kinds of overhead.

Speaker 3:

And, because most law firm owners have no idea what I'm talking about, if they turned off the podcast right now, they could go the rest of their life and never learn what is the difference between static overhead and dynamic overhead.

Speaker 3:

And there's a 99% chance their accountant isn't going to talk to them about it and their bookkeeper isn't going to talk to them about it and no one on their staff is going to talk to them about it. Because, quite candidly, most people don't know. And if you cut the wrong overhead, if you cut dynamic overhead thinking that you're cutting static overhead, or if you cut dynamic overhead not understanding that there's a difference between static overhead and dynamic overhead, you could really do yourself a lot of damage in your business and create a cycle, a feast or famine, which is exactly what you're describing the experience. And this is why you shouldn't cut marketing, because when you cut your marketing and this is why you shouldn't cut marketing because when you cut your marketing you are planting the seeds for the next cycle of feast or famine in your business. And if you're an entrepreneurial infant, if you're very entrepreneurially immature, if you're like one of these kids that's going to fail the marshmallow test. If you know what I'm talking about, right, you know the marshmallow test, don't you?

Speaker 2:

No, is it s'mores?

Speaker 3:

No, no. The marshmallow test is they give kids a choice. They say you can have one marshmallow now or if you wait 20 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever, you can have two marshmallows. And really you know, certain kids go for the one marshmallow because they don't have the ability to discipline themselves and wait for the two marshmallows.

Speaker 3:

We drink one marshmallow or two marshmallows. Assuming you like marshmallows, you'd rather have two, right? Two, correct? Yeah, if I tell you you could have one marshmallow today or two marshmallows tomorrow, you'd probably rather have two marshmallows, right? Yeah, if I told you you could have one marshmallow today or two marshmallows tomorrow, you'd probably rather have two marshmallows, right? Right, if I told you you could make $100,000 this year and $100,000 next year and $100,000 a year after that. Or you could make $75,000 this year, $125,000 next year, $150,000 a year after that and $200,000 a year after that, and $200,000 a year after that. What?

Speaker 2:

would you do the second?

Speaker 3:

Well, a lot of people on this podcast, a lot of people watching this podcast who are experiencing feast or famine marketing feast, or famine revenue feast, or famine cash flow Feast or famine cash flow they, I'm going to say, probably unconsciously, probably unwittingly, probably without realizing it, maybe with bad advice, maybe with no advice, they chose to grab the one marshmallow today. I'm going to save $1,000. I'm going to save $5,000. I'm going to save $5,000 and stick it going to save $5,000. I'm going to save $5,000 and stick it in my pocket.

Speaker 3:

And look at me. I'm a genius. I've got an extra $5,000 to spend on life today. But if I left that $5,000 working for me in the marketing, it could produce $7,500 in six months. It could produce $10,500 in six months. It could produce $10,000 in a year. It could produce $20,000 if I give it a little time and give it a chance to grow and develop. This is the marshmallow test. By the way, there's a whole bunch of sociological reasons why certain kids grab the one marshmallow instead of waiting for two marshmallows. And the marshmallow test. For anyone who knows, the marshmallow test is widely misunderstood and widely misinterpreted to be a function of the kid's character or intelligence, and it actually has nothing to do with that.

Speaker 2:

It would be interesting to see what their DISC assessment would be within lay reach adults.

Speaker 3:

Well, not to get too sidetracked, but what has been actually figured out over years of studying the data and retesting and doing different variables is it actually has to do with the income and level of security that the child has in their life, whether they grab the one marshmallow now or have the confidence to wait for two marshmallows.

Speaker 3:

So, it's not about intelligence, it's not about character, it's not about the kid's future potential because of any inherent characteristics. It has to do with a kid who comes from a household where they don't have a lot of food security, don't have a lot of housing security, maybe there's instability in the relationship between the parents. That kid is going to tend to grab that one marshmallow now because that kid is uncertain about their future. And then, of course, when they do the research and they follow the kids 10, 20 years later and they see how they perform in college, you know it's not surprising that kids who come from disadvantaged, unstable backgrounds tend to not do as well in life as kids who come from more stable backgrounds. So they misinterpreted the data for many, many years and now the marshmallow test is widely misunderstood, which actually I feel like that's exactly on point with the topic we're discussing today.

Speaker 3:

Because marketing is widely misunderstood by law firm owners, because law firm owners have no formal training on marketing or business management and so they're unclear about how marketing works. They don't really understand the causes that produce the effects they keep experiencing and so the absence of confidence and education and understanding and clarity. They grab that marshmallow today while they can. That, I think, is why they turn off the marketing. Turn on the marketing. Turn off the marketing. Turn on the marketing. Not because they're stupid, it's because they're insecure about the future. Secure entrepreneurs, don't turn off our marketing ever.

Speaker 2:

Correct, correct. One of the things I keep bumping into is it seems like the holy grail of attorneys is they want to be, they want to have all referrals and that's depending on someone else, relying on someone else to to grow your business for you. And you know, when I get these attorneys that we're talking about and they're like where do you get your? How are you getting new cases? Oh, a hundred percent word of mouth. You're relying on someone else to remember to think of you when they have. They know someone who has a need where, if you have marketing running consistently, you have branding out there, you have your message out there you're going to get a consistent flow of new cases. Whether you, however, you choose marketing. One of the newer platforms is streaming media. You have meta ads, you have Google PPC, you've got all sorts of offline ads, but you know the, the do you talk to your, your members about like percentages of of goal revenue, of what they should be spending on marketing? How do you, how do you coach on on marketing that way?

Speaker 3:

Right. So first of all, I'm a big fan of referral-based marketing. Referral-based marketing is fantastic. I absolutely agree. The more we get the better. I just want to make sure that the audience understands that we're not saying that you shouldn't try to get referral-based marketing.

Speaker 2:

You always want that.

Speaker 3:

Those are the easiest to close, but those are not the only ones Very predictable, reliable ways to trigger a predictable, reliable, dependable source of a steady flow of referrals. There's ways to trigger and increase referrals. We teach this all the time to our members and we all know the worst number in marketing the worst number in marketing is the number one. One source of clients is dangerous right, Because I've been doing this since All I've been doing is helping lawyers build successful law firms since August 24th 1999. That was the day that I reported for duty at the Florida Bar, at the Law Office Management Assistance Service under the legendary JR Phelps, and that is where I started learning about the business of running a successful law. And I've seen Google make major changes to its algorithm, like major, major changes, like landscape changing. Industries go out of business. You call your marketing vendor and they say we're out of business, there's nothing more we can do for you, because Google challenges I mean Google changes this algorithm. You happen to know how many, how often, Google changes their algorithm per month.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it could be daily these days, but I mean at the time back when you're talking about the ginormous changes, were named by animals. They were that yeah and right.

Speaker 3:

Google changes their algorithm 13 times a day, every day. The algorithm is changing 13 times a day. Little little things right. Little tweaks, yep, that's just goo right. And then you know, there's the major changes that are always happening. You know, every five years I mean, like history repeats itself Every about every three, five, seven years, average about five years Google makes a major, major, major change and, like nothing, everything that was working stops working and everything that wasn't working starts working.

Speaker 3:

And that's just google, right keeps guessing the point I'm trying to make is I've been here doing this since before there was wi-fi. I've been doing this since before there was, before there was facebook. I would you, I was helping people build successful offers before there was Facebook, before there was Twitter, now X, before there was you know any of this stuff? Before there was YouTube?

Speaker 1:

right.

Speaker 3:

Things are always changing and anyone who is only depending on one single marketing channel you are setting yourself up for extinction or at least a lot of suffering, when not if things change. So you've got to constantly be testing. So, yeah, work your referral systems, Join your BNI, Work your referral list. Do all of those things. Yes, yes, yes and yes. And also be testing direct mail. And also be testing a old-fashioned paper snail mail newsletter. And also be testing going out and doing speeches, and also be testing the latest things that are working in the world of digital marketing and digital media. It's not an either or you know thing. You got to try as much as you can afford to try, and I appreciate that your revenues are under a million dollars in gross revenue. You don't have the budget to try everything.

Speaker 3:

But, try a few things and don't ever turn it off until you see that the data is showing you that you're not getting an ROI for at least six months.

Speaker 2:

Right, right. I mean the one thing we do a lot of meta ads for our clients and we have the reps that work for meta that like to call and be your coach and tell you how to do better and how to make your ad campaigns work better, and every single suggestion is spend more money. That is not data. You can go into the reports, look at your data, see what you're getting and just understand. And the other frustration is okay, you're doing digital marketing. You're doing all this different marketing. You have to remember and realize leads. Different leads are different, if that makes sense. So referrals, they already. They come to you, they know you, they have an expectation that you're great and that you can help them with their problem. And in a way, whether it's Google, ppc traffic to your website, meta ads, any of those even streaming TV leads you know there's ads when you're watching a movie on Amazon or whatever. We help that as well. All of these leads, they don't know you.

Speaker 3:

You have to give them a funnel, you have to give them a way to get to know you. You have to give them some like when you go to the ice cream store, right, you go to the ice cream place and they give you a little free taste, right, you want to taste this, you want to taste that, and then you decide the one you want, right. So you got to give. Look, the more you're spending to get a prospect, the more you have to give them for free to warm. Who are presently, or who just got arrested yesterday, or they're in jail and they're like calling the first number they can find. I need to hire someone to get me out of jail.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, of course I'm for a big warm up campaign, but you know the vast majority of practice areas will benefit. If you'll just like slow it down a little bit, right, go for the two marshmallows. Don't just grab the one marshmallow. Slow it down and build something that will really pay off big and consistently in the future. Don't just go for the quick win today. But to your point, marilyn, yeah, yeah, turning on the marketing.

Speaker 3:

Turning off the marketing is a very rookie move. Ending, I mean it like I said. It's. It's driven by lack of security and lack of confidence and and, look, I've been there, I mean I've been broke. You mentioned in the introduction, right, I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to spend money and like, literally, this is money that I could use to, like, buy new tires for my car that needs tires, but instead I'm going to have some faith in my plan, which, of course, is part of.

Speaker 3:

The problem is a lot of these people who are turning on the marketing, turning off the marketing, turning on the marketing, turning off the marketing. They don't actually have a real business plan, right, they're just. They're just surviving from quarter to quarter or month to month. But if you have a real business plan. If you actually have a real business plan, which let me preface this by saying we've had a waiting list for the better part of three years here at how to Ban Small Offer. I'm not here trying to sell anyone anything except please buy my book. Please go to Amazon and buy my book. I got nothing to sell you, but it's a $20 book from Amazon. I and I get like maybe six bucks off the book. Well, yeah, it's probably a million books. No, I wish right For now it's.

Speaker 3:

I'm not selling enough books. That makes a single difference in my life, I promise you. I wrote the book as a passion project. I wrote the book because I believe in the subject. I wrote the book because Mike, the author of Profit, first asked me to write the one for law firms, and I did. I wrote every word of this myself, by the way. No ghostwriters, no AI. This came straight from my heart. Anyway, great book.

Speaker 2:

We'll have a link to that in the show notes.

Speaker 3:

I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:

We'll have a link to that in the show notes for you.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, I appreciate that. Anyway, the point I'm making is I got nothing to sell. I'm here just to give and share and, if you want, in the show notes I'll give you a link that anyone who is a fan of your podcast we can give them, like a free business plan lesson, a free business plan workbook, you know, with instructions for how to do your business plan. You don't need to pay me to do your business plan. You can do your business plan yourself. I'll give you the tools and the resources to do it.

Speaker 3:

And when you have a business plan, then you see the impact of turning your marketing on and turning your marketing off and you'll see how it just eviscerates your plan. Your plan turns to garbage, your plan turns to shreds when your business plan is based on a certain amount of causes to produce the effect that you're after, right, right, and you and you, you give the cause, you remove the cause, you give the cause, you remove the cause, you give the cause, you remove the cause. I think you're just creating chaos. And, of course, because they're experiencing chaos, they say everything's chaotic. Well, yeah, everything's chaotic because you keep causing the chaos, because you keep turning it on and turning it off.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, and especially with digital marketing, it does run on data. As you run ads, the ads are learning. You're telling the ads who your ideal customer is and as it finds those people for you, and then you go oh, I'm too busy Now I'm going to turn them off because I can't. I don't have time for another case, but I don't have yet enough money to hire an associate to help me with that. So then you stop your marketing. Then you have to begin again, which takes a ramp up period to get them to start again. So it's.

Speaker 3:

And this happens is when you realize that you turned it off for too long and now you're desperate. You know, that, by the way, 54% of the bar grievances that are filed nationally originate as a law firm management problem. Really, yeah, 54% of the bar grievances that are filed nationally and every state I mean you know average, obviously, average 54% of the bar grievances that are filed nationally start off as a law firm management problem. And you know what one of the leading law firm management problems is that causes a lot of these bar grievances.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 3:

Well, we've been talking about it the whole time, Turning on and turning off their marketing. For real, I used to work at the Florida Bar. I'm telling you this is true, Because what happens is it's so obvious when you think about it, it's just people don't think about it, right? What happens is you turn on the marketing right.

Speaker 3:

Let's even suppose it works. Turn on the marketing, right. Let's even suppose it works. Turn on the marketing. You bring in a bunch of business, bunch of business, bunch of business. Now you're full of business, you got full of work right, and so you go oh, maryland, turn off my marketing, I'm too busy, right?

Speaker 3:

yeah you try to convince them that's a bad idea. It'll listen. They turn off the marketing. Now they're no longer buried with work, now they're just comfortable. Life is great. Then they get from comfortable with work to scraping the bottom of the barrel of their work and they get a little desperate and so they call you. Hey, marilyn. Marilyn, could you tell me how hard it is to?

Speaker 2:

be a business. I need more business. Now their work and they get a little desperate and so they call you. Hey, maryland.

Speaker 3:

Maryland. Could you tell me how to work and be complete? I need more business now. You were flush Well, I was, but now I'm desperate, Yep. So you turn on the marketing and of course, as you mentioned, it doesn't just instantly go back on, right, and any who tells you they could instantly turn the marketing back on they're lying to you. We could have a whole different podcast episode about all of the lies that lawyers love to believe.

Speaker 2:

True.

Speaker 3:

There's a lot of unethical marketers who tell lawyers lies. The lawyers desperately love to hear these lies, right.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

Most of those lies are designed to absolve you of personal responsibility for your decisions, are designed to absolve you of personal responsibility for your decisions. So it was like oh, this marketer will absolve me of my personal responsibility for my decisions if I just throw enough money in. No, they won't. It's a lot Anyway. So the point I'm making is they turn off. So they come to you to turn on the marketing again. Right, while they're waiting for the marketing to kind of get going again, they're desperate.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and so the next F client you know client grading scale, abcdfs the next client, the next raving lunatic with a bad case, or it could be the nicest person in the world, but the case just isn't the right case for your firm. But they come in with money and the person, the law firm owner, who's desperate, talks themselves into taking the case that they know they shouldn't take from the client they know they shouldn't be presenting. And guess what you wind up with 18 months later? Quite predictably, 54% of the bar grievances that are filed nationally start off as law firm management problems. And I'm not saying that 100% of that 54% are marketing related, but a lot of them are.

Speaker 2:

And I think we can all say over the course of our careers that we've taken clients we shouldn't have and they were typically in that moment of desperation and you have to learn how?

Speaker 3:

why did I do that? No one takes a bad case of a bad client when you don't, when you're not desperate, I mean, no one's that stupid, everyone's a desperate person. Yeah, so yeah, turning on turning off the marketing bad ideas. I feel like we made that point. I feel like anyone who hasn't got the point by now is working hard to not get the point.

Speaker 2:

Very true, very true. Well, let's talk about how to manage, how to manage a small offer. So your process is you start them with a business plan. What is your ideal member? The starter, so say someone's thinking about joining. Who would that be ideally?

Speaker 3:

So, first off, let's talk firm size. Right, we work with. The largest firms that we work with are in the $15, $20 million range. We also work with hundreds of firms that are less than $250,000 in revenue. But we've got stages that we take the firms through. So different stage we have different programs designed to take them through the different stages of growth so hopefully they never outgrow us. Our business model is to always be relevant and help them get to the next stage so they stop using the services that they needed before and now we have the next level of services that they need.

Speaker 3:

Next, all right, practice area when you understand how the business of a law firm works, you quickly understand, you quickly figure out that there is a very thin veneer of difference between a family law firm versus an immigration law firm, versus a bankruptcy law firm versus a bankruptcy law firm, versus a litigation law firm, versus a personal injury law firm versus a criminal defense law firm. It's kind of like saying that the Italian restaurant is a completely different business model than the steakhouse, right, but that the steakhouse the completely different business model than the seafood restaurant, right. The mechanics that underpin a successful law firm are nearly identical in all practice areas. Right, very predictable, easy to understand. So practice area doesn't matter.

Speaker 3:

You mentioned that we work with law firms in different countries. That's true, but primarily in the United States. Different countries, that's true, but primarily in the United States. We have about 600 law firms that we help to manage all over the United States, all different practice areas. Okay, I'm very proud to say this might not matter to some people in the audience, but it matters to me that we greatly over-represent minorities in the legal industry.

Speaker 3:

So there's a certain percentage of Black people who are lawyers, Asian people who are lawyers, Hispanic people who are lawyers, owners of law firms who are women, owners of law firms who are gay, owners of law firms who are left-handed handed. We as a community greatly over-represent in these areas. Not because we try, by the way, I mean we don't go out of our way to do it. It wasn't like a conscious plan or like a strategy. It's actually because of the way the legal industry works that causes minorities to be pressed to start their own law firm in larger percentages than non-minorities.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so instead of joining a large firm, they're more pressured, you think, to hang out their own shield, and they also then, of course, will reach out for coaching to help them get that leg up and get going correctly.

Speaker 3:

Well, you say, instead of joining the large firm, the large firms aren't hiring.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

They're not having the choice and you know you have two different lawyers, a man and a woman. Let's say they both went to college, got the same degree from the same college with the same grades. And then let's say they went to law school and they went to the same law school and got the same grades, and let's say they got a job as a first year associate with the same law firm.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he makes a lot more money.

Speaker 3:

Sorry.

Speaker 2:

He would make a lot more money. No, no, no, no, no, no they'll make the same money.

Speaker 3:

No, they'll make the same money again. The same money begin with, because, also in my example, the owner of this law firm, the owner of this big law firm, is the most fair, reasonable, an angel, an absolute angel, marched in the civil rights, you know, not one ounce of prejudice in their body, right? Both of these two lawyers then decide to get married to different people, not each other and then, eventually, they both decide to have a family, right, his wife has a baby, she has a baby, yes. Well, his wife has a baby, right.

Speaker 2:

Doesn't impact his career.

Speaker 3:

How much work does he really miss Right? Not much right.

Speaker 3:

She has a baby, she's going to miss work right, she should miss work, because those are really precious important times with the baby To take a real legitimate maternity leave. And then, even in the baby's first year or two, you want to give the baby everything that the baby needs right. Give the baby everything that the baby needs right. So now the owner of the law firm has a client and the client comes to the firm and the client is pursuing a case to enforce civil rights and women's rights and I mean it's the most liberal, righteous case in the world, with the best clients in the world, with the owner of the law firm who's the most liberal, fair, balanced, reasonable person in the world. Are you getting what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

And the owner of the law firm says to the client listen, this case is really make or break it for you and we have a choice. You can be represented by either or by two associates. They're both brilliant. And the client says, well, which one has more experience? Well, obviously he's got more experience, right, and because he has more experience, he now gets more experience are you saying?

Speaker 3:

burps yeah, exactly for experience. He then gets more experience and this snowballs until she eventually says can I curse on your podcast? Sure, fuck it. I'm out of here. I'm gonna start my own law firm and we love working with these people because we love helping them build multi-million dollar law firms. And then they go back to their former boss and they're like I made more than you. Yeah, now I own my own law firm and we teach them to do it right. Anyway, I don't even know how to do this little segue.

Speaker 2:

How did we get onto the subject? I'm not sure how we got on that, but it's really good. I mean, I just I love the drive of working with small law firm owners that have that drive and desire to grow. So, and I do want to be respectful of your time as well.

Speaker 3:

We got a three-year waiting list. I'm not here to pitch it or push it or maneuver anyone into anything. You know they can go to our website. They can download all kinds of free stuff If they're interested. They can schedule an appointment to talk to someone on my team. We'll help them do a diagnostic and then, based on the diagnostic, we'll give you free stuff, right. Okay, not that we'll give you free stuff or we won't give you free stuff. The reason why we do the diagnostic is so we send you the right free stuff and we don't send you the wrong free stuff.

Speaker 3:

Right, because you might think you have a marketing problem, but you might actually have an intake problem. You might think you have a staffing problem, but you might have an onboarding problem. You might think you have a cash flow problem, but you might have a process and procedures problem. So let's diagnose it and those give you tons and tons of free stuff. Keep giving you more and more free stuff and, if you want, you can grab a spot on the waiting list and then, when a spot eventually opens up, we'll let you know the spot is opening up and you'll have already consumed so much free stuff and you'll start getting such great results that you'll say, okay, well, this is an easy decision to say. Yes, that's my sales pitch, by the way. That's it.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I love it. Give value, Give value and that teaches people who you are. I love that. So just especially, I love the idea of the business plan. So I want to make sure that I include that. We'll include a link to your book and say someone wants to obviously howtomanageasmalllawfirmcom, we'll have a link to that. So that's the best way to reach you and follow what you're doing. Are you on LinkedIn? Is that a good place to reach out to you or follow you?

Speaker 3:

No, I'm very active on social media, unfortunately. I mean, we never turn off our marketing. So I don't want to sound like a hypocrite because we never turn off our marketing. So I don't want to sound like a hypocrite because we never turn off our marketing. That's just not the channel that we really leverage the most right now. Okay, mostly we leverage our relationships like this and giving out lots and lots of free reports and writing books. That's right. We just give away so much free stuff that people come to us to get on the waiting list and we grow. Never turn off your marketing.

Speaker 3:

Never turn off your marketing, and this is the thing that inexperienced marketers don't understand. They're like oh why is it that you say that you have a waiting list and yet you're doing this marketing? Because you should never turn off your marketing. Never turn off your marketing. I would turn off the electricity before I turn off the marketing, because having more electricity isn't going to bring in any more revenue, but if I do more marketing I could bring enough revenue to maybe turn the lights back on.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I love that. I love that analogy, you're in the office.

Speaker 3:

I know we're getting towards the end of yes, I love that. I love that analogy sitting there literally having to make this decision right to, and I remember I called the landlord who we used. I mean now we own the space, but at the time we rented the space and I remember calling a landlord and asking him if we could pay the rent a little bit late because I was spending the money on marketing literally. And today you know we have 600 law firms under management and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you know what. That wasn't a fun phone call to make.

Speaker 3:

But, I was smart enough to call him before the rent was due. I called him like two weeks before the rent was due, so he wasn't caught by surprise. But the point I'm making is like, if you're going to go out of business and I'm not suggesting that anyone listening to this is going to go out of business, but I'm making a point right If a company goes out of business, the last dollar they should spend before they go out of business is on marketing and sales to try to not go out of business. But that's not what they do. They end up spending their last dollar on static overhead, which isn't going to save them because they don't know the difference between static overhead and dynamic overhead and their accountant isn't proactively involved in the strategizing and planning of their business. By the way, I'm not going to explain the whole big difference between static overhead and dynamic overhead.

Speaker 2:

We'll get your book.

Speaker 3:

And, by the way, there's a podcast called Profit First for Lawyers and I think there's an episode of Profit First for Lawyers that they need to listen to for free, where we talk about static overhead versus dynamic overhead.

Speaker 2:

We'll definitely include a link to the book in the podcast. Absolutely, Arjun. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure having you with us and I've just been so excited to have you and have this conversation.

Speaker 3:

Thank you and I look forward to having coffee on Monday.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I will see you Monday. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me today for this. Thank you so much. Linkedin, to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about, and if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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