Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E67 401k Retirement Plan Options with Matt Ruttenberg

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 67

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Most attorneys view 401k plans simply as employee benefits, but Matt reveals they're powerful financial tools when properly structured. "That's probably about the farthest from the truth that I can explain to someone," he says, comparing the difference between boilerplate retirement plans and customized solutions to the difference between using a legal template versus hiring an attorney.

This conversation goes beyond basics to explore what Matt calls the "retirement plan stack" – an upside-down three-tiered approach that can potentially allow contributions exceeding $300,000 annually. You'll learn about critical deadlines, customization options for eligibility and vesting, and strategies for incentivizing key attorneys with long-term programs that align with your firm's succession planning.

Matt also addresses practical concerns like state mandates (43 states now require or will soon require retirement plans), investment flexibility beyond standard mutual funds, and how to manage liability concerns as a plan sponsor. Whether you're in growth mode and focused on employee retention or looking to maximize personal tax advantages, this episode offers clear guidance on building a retirement strategy that evolves with your practice.

The key takeaway? Start early, ask questions, and recognize that retirement plans offer far more customization than typically presented. Your 401k can be a powerful tool for firm growth, tax management, and wealth creation rather than just another benefit line item. 

Reach Matt here: 

https://401k.expert/

This episode is sponsored by Wealthy Woman Lawyer® 

Wealthy Woman Lawyer® is a law firm growth strategy and business coaching service exclusively for women law firm owners. Ready for a practice that funds your dream lifestyle and gives you time to enjoy it? 

Visit https://wealthywomanlawyer.com today.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Matt Rutenberg, to the show today. Matt is a 401k expert and co-owner of Life Inc Retirement Services. He's been in the finance industry for over 20 years and educates successful entrepreneurs on how to use your 401k plan as a tool for success and a rapid growth of your wealth, as opposed to just an employee benefit. I'm excited to have you here, Matt Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, marilyn, appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. Tell us a little bit about what you've got you into this industry and where you started.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean that's a pretty long journey so I'll keep it relatively short. But I've been in industry finance in general for over 20 years. Third generation did more in the B2C you know, direct-to-consumer financial planning for a long time and really wanted to be part of more of the entrepreneur side of things. That's the part I love. I like working with business owners as opposed to the retiree world or just the individual family. I wanted to get into the business owner. I love the mindset of the entrepreneur and it's a different framework of how they speak a lot of times.

Speaker 3:

So I sold my business, merged into this company, which I partnered a lot with before I became a partner and owner of this company as well. And that's probably the last seven years is where I was really totally focused on nothing but 401k space and that's all we are. We're 401k administrators and we're absolute experts in the field so we can create more of a custom model than like a plug-and-play situation. So long journey, over 20 years, but one of those things where you just figure it out as you go along your path, and that's where I kind of landed.

Speaker 2:

I love that and I love that you found the energy that counts for working with entrepreneurs as opposed to, you know, the direct family or retirement is the energy you wanted to be involved with, because entrepreneurs, I think, are unique individuals. It's just it takes time to differ to do that. Yeah, awesome. And you help law firms design their 401ks that's going to be specific for them or retirement plans, is that correct?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, and that's probably one of the big misconceptions out there. And I mean financial planners and CPAs even have this misfit of all plans or all 401k plans. They should pay our career people. So 401k is a 401k is a 401k. That's probably about the farthest from the truth that I can explain to someone. Let's actually let's compare it to the legal industry, because we work with a lot of. That's probably about the farthest from the truth that I can explain to someone. Actually, let's compare it to the legal industry, because we work with a lot of attorneys and lawyers. It's like hiring a legal document versus hiring the attorney.

Speaker 2:

I did that Exactly.

Speaker 3:

Well, I can put boilerplate versus custom, so completely different model, and there there's, there's a space for that. Obviously, when you're kind of looking for just more simplified plug and play, and the way we kind of work through this is, we ask two questions, sometimes three. Let's start with the first one is why do you want, want to afford a CPA? Why are you talking to us? Why are you looking into it? Why did you ask your CPA about this? Honestly, it's like multiple choice. This is for me. I want to start stockpiling for retirement. I want to save money on my taxes. Or is it for your employees? Because you're maybe not quite ready to contribute for yourself? You're in growth mode. This is for the employees to typically or you know it could be all of you.

Speaker 3:

I've been honestly about half the time.

Speaker 2:

It is all you got well let's get a cue up, absolutely cue up one step. Um, I'm I. I have an idea over retirement plans, finance, finance plans are not my suit, so let's back up and say clearly is a 401k where I can buy stocks within that from my salary and not have to pay tax on that? Is that what that is, and do I have the access to buy those stocks?

Speaker 3:

And that's a really, really good question. And that's a really really good question. A lot of folks especially, let's say, they started with the. You know they worked for somebody and they work for a large organization, what they're used to seeing inside of a 401k plan is a menu of mutual funds basically, or in-land funds.

Speaker 3:

That's what I meant, yeah, and that's a normal portfolio for the employee to protect employees from themselves, so they don't go kind of too far off and investing in things that they may or may not understand. But a lot of there's. There's. 401k is a code, it's a tax. It's one of the many tax codes. It has nothing to do with the investments. All this is how is the money taxed and how much you know it's. You call it qualified account. So this put this much in. We'll give you this much. Now.

Speaker 3:

Side of that 401k, you can invest in a whole slew of types of investments. You have to find that custodian that will allow that Stocks, bonds, future funds, linux funds, cryptocurrency. You have to find that custodian that will allow that stock Cryptocurrency. You can buy real estate. You can act as a private lender inside of your 401k. Think of the 401k as an umbrella and you can have as many custodians as you want under that umbrella. You just got to figure out who's going to offer, who allows the rules, and then we bring that a lot of times. It's just a bank account, basically, anything you want minus art. You can't invest art, a few other things, but really, 4nk is not specific to the investment, specific to how it's taxed.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and the custodian that you choose to help manage it for you.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely yeah. There's three roles to every 401k plan. One is the administrator, who clients piece right and then creating a document making you legal and compliant. And then you have the record keeper, slash, custodian, and that's where the money's held, that's where the money flows into and invested with. That's the record. And then there's the fiduciary. Who's managing those funds? Is it you as the business owner? Is it you? Is it a financial advisor? Sometimes we'll do it, we're the ones managing and monitoring it for you. And the whole coin is liability. Who's holding the liability for everybody? Those are the three roles and oftentimes those are outsourced to other parties so the attorney can run their business and be what they have. It'll be less.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so now we have three questions that have to be answered. Why do you want it? Okay, so let's now go back to where you work. Is that? Now I gotta be better clear understanding of what?

Speaker 3:

got it lab is. So the first question is, okay that, why are we here? What are you looking for? And it's multiple choice. And second, and that narrows it down on what kind of plan design we want to give. And the second question is how much do you, as the owner, want to contribute? We ton of people calling in who are maybe office manager or the hr rep or the dfo or whoever it is, but they're not the one we need to talk to most of the time. The 4k design is surely based on what the owner wants to do for themselves. They want to max out attributions. We're going to go one route. If they don't, because they're reinvesting in their business, they need to hire more people before they start putting money in their own pocket. Then we might go another route. Split this in two. There's two gold really. Are we doing this for the owner? Are we doing this for the employees, or is it both?

Speaker 2:

Okay, and if I'm in growth mode? So let's assume that we have a medium-sized firm, that I want to keep my employees, so the 401k would be an employee benefit.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

But I want to. I'm in growth mode, so I'm looking to take as much revenue as I can and put it to scale, and so what would be my next step at that point?

Speaker 3:

up at that point. Yeah, that's the traditional 401k. It's what we call that. It's a traditional plain Jane 401k. It's basically what we call that. And what you're doing is you're picking and choosing your match, kind of like a cafeteria style plan, where you're picking what your match is going to be, if any, that you're going to invest in. There's going to be a vesting schedule on that, like how long does the employee need to be with you or if they lack that money. It's all about protecting cashflow. It's all about protecting the assets and making sure that those employees that are trying to incentivize to come in are the ones that you want and we have to. For a buffer, a 90 day. You push that out as far as a year, how long you're willing to do that, and then it's all about how long do they need to be with you to keep what you just gave, and that's how we use that.

Speaker 3:

So you have an upside down three tiered way. I call it a retirement plan stat. The bottom layer is the 401k, what we just talked about. Then you can add another layer called profit sharing on top of that and that can get you up to $70,000. So the $23,000 is on the bottom $70,000 above that, and in the top layer there's a numerous amount of strategies. You can show over 300 grams pre-tax contributions into your retirement plan. So it's all about figuring out what that first step is, what that first answer is For the employees. Maybe we only start with that bottom layer. As you grow and become more profitable you add another layer and so the max for 2025?

Speaker 2:

So is it like Roth IRAs have a max every year where you get indexed?

Speaker 3:

Does that?

Speaker 2:

change every year?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it goes up 2024 was $23,000 on that bottom layer of that retirement plan stack and bumped up to 23,500 for 2025. When you add those bottom two layers it's $70,000 is what you're allowed to put in as a business hour and above that you can go over three. We have plans that we're putting $350,000 a year in all three layers.

Speaker 2:

I mean even just at the 23,500, that's a tremendous savings of taxes.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely it is a tool that the 23.5, that's a tremendous savings of taxes. Absolutely it is a tool. That's one of the biggest things I try to get across is a 4K yes is an employee benefit Technically. That's why they created it, just like every other IRS code out there. It's a tool for the business owner, just that you have to do certain things for him. So if you have employees, if you have w-2 employees those are the ones who are eligible for this form you have to take care of them first.

Speaker 2:

Then you can take advantage of all these very high level strategies they put in and a firm could actually start that without actually contributing, so it could be just the employees.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. 4nk is just one retirement plan style. It's all simple IRAs and SEP IRAs and out of like lower beginner level if you will. The starter method to get into that retirement plan is just to get things going and then you can graduate into the 4NK side and the profit sharing and find benefit for comp and all these different types of plans that are available. The starting point and there's a lot of state now there's 43 states that mandate either pass or propose to have a retirement plan for your employees. 43 states how many employees more? A lot of them are five, five employees minimum.

Speaker 3:

California just finished off I think it's the end of this year with one. California is. There's a lot of activity going on in California right now, but each state does have a mandate option. It's basically a bag of IRAs is really what it is. So you said I think you said he had a Roth IRA. You said the bunch of Roth IRAs that the employer can withhold their contributions, the employee contribution, and send it off to that. Now the investments are poor, to say the least. It's minimal.

Speaker 3:

Just a handful of mutual fund options beside those. So a lot of times you either implement a 401k or a simple IRA or something like that, or you can just use the state mandate option for California, for example. I think you're, I believe you're in California, right, Texas, Texas. So Texas is one of the seven that don't have it. Florida, you remember it? Oh no, it is.

Speaker 1:

Or.

Speaker 3:

Montana maybe, but California has something called Cal. Stavers is where you can go into, and Maryland has a mandate. Illinois is up and running, and then there's a number that have passed. A lot have passed or proposed in the near future.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so, depending on your state, you're going to be required to do some sort of retirement at five, because I knew there was something I thought I remember with a minimum of 10 employees, you've got to do something. I forget what it was.

Speaker 3:

Well, it's health insurance or something like that even proposed at this point for a retirement plan, same with Florida, montana, I think, new Hampshire as well, if I remember correctly, but almost every other state has something up and running or on its way.

Speaker 2:

Okay, well, that's very interesting. And so when do I okay, I say it's not mandated at five employees, but when do I know in the growth cycle by first, when is a good time to start talking to you Start going? Okay, now we are December, we need to get ready or 2026. So what would I look for? When would I start making a planning process?

Speaker 3:

So, assuming, yes, you do want to do the 401k and we're past the point of saying you know what is the reason for it, more of yes, we need to implement something. But what are we doing? I always start early asking questions, just ask questions. Look it up. There's a vast world of information out there on 4Ks, but most of them are kind of like the lower-level questions and how do I design this? And it's like a boilerplate version. Is what you're going to see out there? There's not a lot of content around the details, if you will, and that's what we're trying to do is get that out. It's a lot of deadlines, a lot of deadlines. The bottom layer, that bottom layer of that upside down to a cheer wedding cake that is due by 1231. You have to have it implemented, sometimes at a certain time. I'll say, barbara, that's October 1st for 2025. So it takes about 60 to 60 things up and running. So usually by summer is when you have to start asking questions and figuring these things out.

Speaker 3:

Profit sharing isn't due when you have to implement the plan up until the day you file, including extension. So for all of you who have not filed, or you file an extension in S-Corporation and you file an extension, put you out to September. You don't have to implement or contribute up until that day. You file your extension to implement and contribute for 2024. So you may have a file extension because a lot of people who are S-corporations they're like I don't, there's no way, I want to. By March 15th Most S-corps will file an extension. If you have filed an extension as of the beginning of reporting, you still do something at the point of 74 and that property share is due. So those are the main dates and even that $300,000 that I was telling you about earlier, that's also the same deadline. So those are called employer contributions. Those are not due until the day you file, including this.

Speaker 2:

Okay, but say I wanted to start something I wanted to start in 2026. I need to have it filed by December 31, 2025?.

Speaker 3:

So it depends on where do you want your contributions to hit. Right. You get those tax notes of your contribution. So if you want a tax deduction for 2025, we need to start something before the end of the year. If you're looking for 2026, then you move the part of those profit sharing. You can wait until next year if you want 2025.

Speaker 3:

The calculations aren't exactly always the best. Again, this is where you start those conversations. If you're just thinking about it in a year, start the conversation because there's different types of contributions inside of the 401k. It's not just running through your payroll. Some of it comes through payroll, some of it comes from your corporate account. Pack it differently. Each one of those has a different deadline. It's all about.

Speaker 3:

This is those questions that we ask why do you want to contribute, what is it that you're trying to do with the plan and how much do you want to contribute? And then we go into further, more details like are you, what type of fte structure are you? How are you paying yourself? Tell me about your employee pool that and then we're going to guide you and do say hey, what is the best? So's a huge, vast world trying to figure this out. It's really hard to figure it out on your own, especially if you're not in the finance industry, because sometimes the verbiage doesn't line up with what you're familiar with. And that's for the education. And that's absolutely what we're trying to do is educate people. We're not selling people, we're trying to educate the salt, and that's our biggest.

Speaker 2:

This is not just, we're not selling people, we're trying to educate the salt, and that's our biggest. This is not also not a not a one-way decision. So, looking at the, I think you, you know to me, I'd probably start looking a year ahead in time and get it on the calendar and kind of have an idea just just to figure out deadlines.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, what are these deadlines, when? When do I need to implement and when is it due? Okay, pause, we'll reach out in six months or two months or whatever it is. It is a I don't want to. I don't want to. It's like an overwhelming thing. As long as you have the guidance, do one thing at a time. Try and do it all at the last minute, three days before you file. You're probably pretty late in the game, but try to figure it out. There's too much to figure out.

Speaker 2:

And once you have it set up and your employees all come in at the same time that you set it up, you're ready to go. Everybody says, yes, I want in New employees. Do they have to wait a specific period of time? Is there an enrollment period, or do I make that decision on how quickly I want them available to it?

Speaker 3:

That's a big part of the customization and I'm sure that you're not using a boilerplate option Eligibility, who's allowed in and when. You can go anywhere between instant to one year before you allow your employees in. And then the vesting schedule on top of that is a as well. Do we allow them to be with you for one year or 50 years before money goes to them if they were to leave the company. One thing you're allowed to do a lot of people don't realize you push out as far as a year, meaning your employees have to be with you for one year before they're allowed to put their own money in. But you can always add a special enrollment period. You know I just hired somebody and their attorney and I need to get this person in the plan now to allow them to get the bonus benefits Exactly yeah.

Speaker 3:

And we can have a special enrollment period for anyone who's not eligible. Everyone's in this person. Usually, law firms tend to be a little bit smaller, just a handful of employees, under 10 for the most part, and then you can do that At the same time, if you are bringing in an attorney, versus staff tend to say I want to maybe take care of that person a little bit more. And that's where we get into that third layer helping benefit or not quite where you can target people. You can target one person or two people, and these are the folks that I want to focus on because I want them to be part of this organization and the growth of my company.

Speaker 3:

Or they might be your successor and you plan on them buying out your business and you're like I need that person to stay with me for five or 10 years at least, and you create like something called one options from LTIP, a long-term incentive program Only for that person alone, not everybody else. It's just for that person. So there's just stacking on one plan on top of the other. Everyone else gets a match Simplified, not Move it easy and then you focus on just that one. That you did well, so really make sure that it's the right one.

Speaker 2:

I love that. Now, when it comes to vesting of an employee, say I wanted to be with you five years before they're vested. So that means if they leave before five years, they don't get to take that money with them. Yeah, correct.

Speaker 3:

It depends on where we're at on that stack. We were talking about the match that you're dealing with. There's some rules. These are all qualified plans. The IRS says, yeah, you can do these, but you have to follow these rules. We'll give you that tax incentive, but you have to follow these rules. You can either do a cliff vest at three years zero, zero, zero, 100, the money that you gave them, and then they can walk away after three years, or stretch it out to six years as a graded scale which a lot of people are familiar with Zero percent, 24 and 60, 80, and then a hundred percent year stick and you can build that out A lot of times.

Speaker 3:

It depends on what type of plan you're doing. There's different role types of 401ks. I'm at first question that I ask what is the goal and then we'll say here's your resting options with this Cause. We know if you want to max out, you need to use one of these pines 401ks and those have a menu of options. Or if you don't care, then you have a little bit more flexibility, but you're going to be limited to how much you can predict. Now, that's the first and second layer.

Speaker 3:

Now the third, that L-tip I was mentioning. These are called non-qualified pines. You can basically do whatever you want. The third, that L-tip I was mentioning. These are called non-qualified banks. You can basically do whatever you want. You're bonusing them that money and a lot of times it's a 10% calculation of their salary is what you end up giving them in that third layer. Most of the time it's a stretch over 10 years, so it might be 10, 20, 30, 40 and then year five. You'd say here's 50 of your salad and another 50 after 10 or 100 after 10. It's usually around 10 is the minimum that you that are that level you can budget into. It comes in the form of a bonus and obviously we all know if it's a bonus it comes off your books. It's deferred to the attorney. It's a very simplified version. There's more advanced versions of that where you have a little bit more control, but that's just kind of a really step one, especially for smaller companies. That's a really great first step to really incentivize those stories especially for smaller companies.

Speaker 2:

That's a really great first step to really incentivize those stories. Wow, very, very interesting. So bottom line is to plant early, get started planting early. So you have the calendar down, you know what your rules are and do you help the 401k decide what package of natural farms are going to be held in it. Like is it typically like a family? So you cover small cap, large cap, the blue chips and all of that tech.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, when you build a menu out and you remember why you use every, it's just you as the entirely just you and your solo entrepreneur. You on. You can do whatever you want. If you want to self-direct, you self-direct and you put all your money in one stock if you want it. Or crypto currency, do whatever you want with that. But once you have employees, there's a lot more liability. So we often will create, we'll add that level of fiduciary risk to us and take up the import, because if you're managing those funds for your employees, you are, in essence, their financial advisor. The owner is the financial advisor of your employees.

Speaker 2:

And we don't want that.

Speaker 3:

Especially in the legal industry. We understand liability. We will help create that. There are regulations in place. You need to have a default fund, you need to check off all the boxes and the goal is to create the best of each one of those categories, and then sometimes we'll allow the owner and the situation. The owner can self-direct and then we can do it. We are pure. Customization is the key. There's a lot more gray area in the 4MK space that meets the eye than what you see on the direct-to-consumer websites where you say I need a foreign pay, you Google it. Who takes you to the biggest organization. They create these processes to simplify their internal processes and they only allow X, y, z, but they don't allow A through S or whatever it is. There's so much more you can do and it's all.

Speaker 3:

The whole point is building the plan for your business instead of everybody else's. That is the absolute number one thing is you can make changes along the way. This is a pivot. Constantly, that's a little pivot. Right as you grow, you hired someone else. You need to. You evolve month to month, day to day, and your plan needs to be able to evolve with that. And that's why we can amend the plan easily, because if that plan is built for the person, everyone else we can amend.

Speaker 2:

That was my next question is can these changes, your circumstances change and you grow and your visas grow?

Speaker 3:

Not only can you just add those layers onto that retirement plan set. You change the mold of that, each one of those plans. You could change it. Certain things you have to wait until the next calendar year. Some things you can change mid-year, depending on what we're doing. Again, they're trying to protect the employees. It's really what the IRS and the Department of Labor are trying to protect the employee. As long as you're doing that, then the employer can really flourish inside of this. And we'd like to work with the CPAs. How does this all connect? How do we be the kids? Maybe this doesn't work, but ongoing's, you know, ongoing consultation is the absolute number one. Being added to the team is what we like, is where we like this. We're all on the same side of the table and just have conversations about it.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So if you think one of the biggest takeaways that people listening would get from this advice, what would you say? The number one thing.

Speaker 3:

Two, really it's one start early, have conversations, wait till the last minute. Not all horn caves are pretty. There's not a one-size-fits-all. There's a lot of gray area that you can get in.

Speaker 2:

Very, this has been very interesting. Like I said, I knew I'd have to probably get in trouble, so thank you for explaining this and telling us what the difference is there. I know my listeners might want to reach out to you and connect with you. Where can they connect and see more about you?

Speaker 3:

The easiest website on the planet is called 401kexpert. 401kexpert is our way, is where you can get in touch with me Someone either myself or someone in our team. They just ask questions. You can get in touch and just start asking away.

Speaker 2:

That's, again the first step. If you need to reach out to us in a year, we'll touch base with you in a year. So then, no problem. Well, if you're thinking about it or if your state's just past that, that you reach out to Matt and start talking about the 401k that you're required to do. Thank you so much for your time, appreciate it.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about, and if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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