Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E72 Dealing with High Conflict Divorces (Narcissists) with Lisa Johnson

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 72

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Lisa Johnson never planned to become a high-conflict divorce strategist. After enduring a $100,000 divorce that stretched into a decade of legal battles, she discovered a phenomenon she hadn't known existed: legal abuse. Today, she's on a mission to help others navigate the treacherous waters of divorce and custody battles with narcissistic opponents.

The conversation explores coercive control, subtle abuse through threats, humiliation, and control that often feels "normal" to victims. Lisa's advocacy helped Connecticut become one of seven states to legally recognize it as domestic violence. 

This episode stands out for Lisa’s real-world negotiation strategies that work with high-conflict personalities. Instead of traditional methods, she suggests giving narcissists some spotlight, keeping sessions short, and using smart communication to stay in control. “It’s a patience game,” she explains, not about winning fast, but winning smart.

 For attorneys supporting domestic violence survivors, Lisa shares powerful tips for building trust; sometimes, a simple “I’m sorry you’re going through this” can make all the difference. She also flags warning signs of legal abuse, like persistent anger, addiction, or mental health issues, and hidden finances. 

Reach Lisa here: 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/been_there_got_out/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BeenThereGotOut
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BeenThereGotOut
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@been_there_got_out
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/been-there-got-out/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/BeenThereGotOut
Podcast: https://beentheregotout.buzzsprout.com/
Book: https://amzn.to/4lKu2FU

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, lisa Johnson, to the show today.

Speaker 2:

Lisa is the co-founder of Been there Got Out, a high-conflict divorce strategist and a certified domestic violence advocate who has successfully represented herself through scores of court appearances. Her case, published in the Connecticut Law Journal, has been used as legal precedent. Her live testimony helped pass Jennifer's Law in Connecticut, the third state in America to expand its legal definition of domestic violence to include coercive control. She and her partner, chris, coach people to high conflict relationships, divorce, custody battles and co-parenting hell so that they have a chance to the best outcome in family court and beyond. They also offer a weekly legal abuse support group for those dealing with narcissistic opponents in legal matters. Their book Been there Got Out Toxic Relationships, high Conflict Divorce and how to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances was released in March of 2023. Their current book on what to do when your ex tries to turn your kids against you, as well as a comprehensive online program from Fear to Fearsome Family Court, is coming out this year. I'm excited to have you here, lisa.

Speaker 3:

Welcome Me too. Thanks so much. Well, I never dreamed as a child of being a high conflict divorce strategist. Of course not. I was with my ex for nearly 20 years and never pictured that I'd get a divorce and it happened. And it ended up taking a year and $100,000, which was 10 times more than what I anticipated, even though I didn't even think I could afford that. And then it was another several years about 10 total in the legal system just trying to get my ex to comply with our legal agreement.

Speaker 3:

So in the process I was able to use I felt like torture, but I was able to use a lot of my skills in terms of being trained as an educator. My master's is in education, so one of the things I used to love teaching was the art of persuasion, and so I had to drum up a lot of those skills to speak effectively in and out of the courtroom in terms of mediating and to different to a variety of judges that you can imagine over about 10 years. And so at the not even at the end of all the court stuff, but somewhere in the middle I thought this is crazy. I don't know what it's called. And then I found the term legal abuse. This is crazy. I don't know what it's called.

Speaker 3:

And then I found the term legal abuse and realized, well, this is my life and I bet, if it's my life, even though I don't know too many people who are dealing with it, I bet there's other people Found out that 80,000 people in America alone were dealing with what I was dealing with, and then, when Chris and I first started our legal abuse support group, we put it out there and I thought, okay, if I can get two people, great. And I think we got 12 from all over the world that first week, and then I knew we were onto something, and so that became the thing that we really specialize in, and I feel like my skills as a writer have also really helped us, because we do so much with teaching the art of strategic communication.

Speaker 2:

That's fantastic. Yeah, it's amazing. I think many of us have been at the ire of a narcissist and not really had a label for it, because I know when it happened to me I didn't have a label for it, and it's eye-opening and educational when you do and you see there's a way out. So I applaud what you're doing and I definitely believe that you found the market. I do want to jump into the precedent that you helped set in Connecticut Explain how they define coercive control.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so coercive control is? It's like a big, big topic and when I talk to clients I usually talk about how it's all that invisible abuse, usually domestic violence. People think of physical or imminent threat of physical harm, but according to this group that they have the best definition, they're called Women's Aid. They're based in the UK, who has coercive control laws. Coercive control officially means a pattern of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation that is used to harm, punish or frighten a victim, and this kind of controlling behavior is designed to make that person dependent and it isolates them from support, it exploits them, it deprives them of their independence and basically regulates their everyday behavior. So basically it's ways to keep you in a relationship where you can't leave. So financial abuse is a big part of it. I know a term a lot of people aren't familiar with is revenge porn, and that's where someone is saying if you leave me, I'm gonna publish sexual images of you. So that's not just gonna affect your reputation, that could affect your job, that could affect your family.

Speaker 3:

So you're forced to stay in that relationship, basically out of fear of what the person's going to do if you leave. And in the United States coercive control is actually considered a crime of liberty, because you can't live as an independent person, you can't leave, you're basically a hostage in this relationship. But many people have been in these relationships for a while and they don't even realize what's going on. But coercive control is also a way to prevent conflict. So what happens in the dynamic of a couple is one person's needs and feelings and desires are focused on and the other is basically dancing around on eggshells to do whatever they can to make them happier, to prevent them from exploding.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. It's very interesting. Again, you know, until you have a label for it you don't realize what you're dealing with. And it's such a new, a lot of it's such a nuance of how they treat someone, and a lot of times it's also behind closed doors, so even their closest friends don't know what's going on Right Right.

Speaker 3:

I mean. One out of two people in these kinds of relationships don't realize that something is really wrong because it's become normal and familiar. Yeah, but then someone on the outside says wait, you have to check with your partner to see what you're allowed to wear. And you're a grown woman, like why do you have to do that? In your head it's like, oh, I never thought about that because it's gone on for so long and it didn't start like Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Exactly and the whole, yeah it's. I'm I'm super loving what you're doing. I wish I would have realized the symptoms and what was going on earlier, but it is a condition and just slowly happens until you all of a sudden you're controlled and then yeah, very interesting condition. And just slowly happens until you, all of a sudden, you're in control and then, yeah, very interesting, now you work with attorneys to help them do what you know, like what therapists don't do. So how do you work with attorneys to help, say, the victim to be able to take control or get their story and move forward?

Speaker 3:

So one of the things that we like to think about is that when people are going through high conflict, divorce or separation or custody battles because it's not normal, like most divorces, where things kind of calm down and the anger subsides and both people want to move on with their lives it's the opposite. These are the cases that take years and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more. Kids are put in the middle, so it's like a war zone. Somebody really needs a team of support. So we like to work with attorneys, we like to work with therapists. Sometimes we'll meet with a client and their friend or family who's helping support them. But they really do need a bunch of people, sometimes financial advisors or real estate people, but anyone to help them. Kind of I shouldn't even say float, but get through, plow through the situation. Kind of I shouldn't even say float, but get through, plow through the situation.

Speaker 3:

So attorneys we often say for these cases have a hard time because they are trained in logic and most of the world is logical, and so they assume that both parties are going to come to the table and they're going to do what's fair and they're going to do what's best for the kids. But these are the cases where that one person doesn't care about either of those two values. They care about themselves, and so lawyers who are involved in these cases that we always joke and say our clients belong to that. My lawyer says this is the craziest case they've ever had club, because it doesn't follow that normal cadence and attorneys get really fatigued. Plus, our clients tend to be the neediest ones because they are dealing with domestic violence and often they think well, my lawyer knows all the details, so I'm going to call my lawyer. Every single time something happens. They start using the lawyer as a therapist, which, of course, the lawyer is not trained to do and it costs tons of money. So, but for a lot of people, their lawyer, they they feel like this is the person that can help me the most. They're also not recognizing and I think this is important for lawyers to be aware of that being in one of these coercively controlling relationships, you've given your authority to that other person. I'm not blaming anyone. That's just the nature of how these things happen. And so getting out of a relationship like that a lot of people still have the mindset of I am going to now hire an attorney and pay them a bunch of money and they're going to save my life and and so basically, like you're, you're now my knight in shining armor and you're going to take care of everything for me.

Speaker 3:

And one thing we work on with our clients is to do what's called taking strategic oversight and to work more collaboratively with attorneys. Instead of saying that because it's also bad for attorneys to have a client who thinks you do everything and I'm going to blame you when all this money has been spent and you haven't done what I expect you to do. So it's really, really important for lawyers to communicate well with clients. That's the biggest complaint we hear from our clients is my lawyer is ignoring me.

Speaker 3:

Keeping in mind, too, that for them, when a lawyer doesn't get back to them and I'm not saying a lawyer has to respond immediately they are feeling what they did in that same abusive relationship the silent treatment. So when someone's not responding, they feel that it's personal, that the lawyer doesn't like them. They start dancing, you know, dancing around their head like what did I do wrong? Or lawyers who tend to be very proprietary and saying like this is what you have to do. Our clients have already lost their voices, and so they feel even more diminished where they're not being able to make choices. So communication is so important for lawyers.

Speaker 2:

Agreed Communication and expectations. Right yeah, having that, having the needing a therapist to help you get to a certain point so you can communicate and it's like the negotiations with a narcissist is not a negotiation, it's a win-lose, not a win-win, it's a win-something-up. Exactly, and people don't realize that you go into a negotiation thinking that we all want a good outcome and that is not the case.

Speaker 3:

No, they don't want to finish. They want to keep you engaged because once they've gotten out of the day-to-day interaction with you, we always say they're limited to three things money, kids and the court. And the court and money go hand in hand and they want to financially destroy you and then, in the process, they want to turn your kids against you. They want you to like one of our clients' exes said I want you bloody and begging for mercy in the street.

Speaker 2:

Wow, okay, that's visual Right and that's the mother of your child, okay.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah, people it's. That's amazing, yeah, I mean. And going no contact code? Going no contact is not an option if you have children, so that makes it even harder. So how do you teach negotiation?

Speaker 3:

with narcissists. So when you talked about winwin and win-lose and I said win-suffer they tend to be so predictable. People like that we know that everything's about them. They need to win. You need to suffer so you can play certain roles in order to keep someone at the table to mediate. So, for example, in a fair, normal mediation, both people come to the table. They're like let's figure out what we can do so that it's equal at least, or at least it feels like nobody is absolutely losing.

Speaker 3:

Instead of coming into a negotiation with someone like that, we advise our clients like you keep your mouth shut. I know you already did it, but you keep your mouth shut and you get them to start talking, Give them the mic and make them feel like you are just there to listen to them. You want to hear all about what they have to say. You want to validate their feelings. You want to act enthusiastic and excited to be there, Grateful that you're in mediation versus litigation. You want to keep them at that table. So one of the things that does not work that a lot of lawyers will try to do is blaming and accusing. You come into a negotiation like you did this, that this I deserve, that they're going to leave and it's going to explode so we want to keep. We always say we want to turn the volume down on the conflict. Like I am, we like mediations to be a couple of hours repeatedly, not like eight hour long mediation.

Speaker 3:

So you come in that first session. You stay quiet, you listen, you get intel and then you find what you need and then you start using your knowledge to negotiate. And of course this is a really involved process. But it's not about getting what you need right away. It's a patience game and if I had one of our slides I'd hold up the Academy Award and a barf bag.

Speaker 3:

Very unpleasant, but when you understand that that's part of the strategy, you're going to get farther, like a lot of our clients have done really, really well, and they're shocked because they thought it's not going to work. This person's so high conflict, I heard. You know it's dangerous to mediate with a narcissist. No, it's better for you to try to do whatever you can outside of court because then you have more power over, let's say, your parenting plan. Nobody knows your family as well as you do. No judge and no lawyer is going to give you a better parenting plan than what you can think of yourself. I mean. Obviously you know they can help you structure it. There's so many details that are not included if you just go in and let a stranger decide what's going to happen, and that's one of the number one reasons people end up back in court is poorly written agreements that lack detail and the other side just weaponizes.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I think that's that makes so much sense logically looking at narcissists to do it in two hour chunks instead of trying because all you need is one moment for them to flip back on and start taking over, instead of thinking that they're owning the room expensive and when you give them eight hours they're like oh great, I could waste eight hours of your time.

Speaker 3:

You can't just cancel. You're paying a lot of times, not just for a mediator, but you're paying for your lawyer to be there. They would love to burn through your money just playing games. So you can't get anything done in two hours, why continue? And also it's exhausting. And so in mediation a lot of times because our clients' lawyers get fatigued, we find that they pressure our clients to settle because it's like all right, everybody's tired. We see that one's not going to budge, but you might. So let's get you to budge, because the goal is let's settle right, let's get out of here.

Speaker 3:

So, our clients face a lot of pressure and you say like just know that it's going to be like that, and that's why we do a lot of preparation ahead of time.

Speaker 2:

Is there thinking about this legal abuse, obviously now being able to put a label on it? How do you foresee, how do you recognize that? So you started the divorce, you finally gotten away from that person, and now that the legal starts happening, how do you know that you're here, this is going to be happening or this is happening?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So it's, it's a great question and it's something that when I met my attorney our first consult, he said in 20 minutes he said yours is going to be a bad one. And I was like, how did you know? Like I thought my ex is, he's a good person, he's just done some bad things. And my lawyer was absolutely spot on. He said yours is going to take a year. It took 50 weeks, but later I interviewed him and I included about several factors of what he knew then that in our book, and one of them is, like I said, anger.

Speaker 3:

That doesn't subside. So usually people start to settle down four to six months and they see the money's flying out the door. They think, all right, the kids are suffering, let's, let's be smart and try to work to get it done. They don't want to get it done, they want to keep engaging with you. So someone who doesn't want the process to end, that's a sign that this is going to be a tough one.

Speaker 3:

Another one is when there's mental illness and or addiction active addiction Because when someone has either of those and a lot of our clients have both they don't have good judgment. Their thinking is impaired so they're not thinking about the consequences of their actions. They're not thinking of how much money is being spent, how much they're harming the children. They can't even think about what's best for themselves, so forget you and the kids. So that makes things really, really hard. And the third thing I mean there's more than this, but I'll just get into three is somebody that feels entitled to hide money and I like to think of the quote what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too and so they do not cooperate with financial disclosure is his mind too, and so they do not cooperate with financial disclosure, and so you're spending months or years chasing after information that normal people just say here's the stuff, let's divide it and figure it out. They hide it, so that ends up taking a long time and is very, very painful and expensive.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and it's not like a shared illegal face like it's. They're just leaving you destitute while they walk away with whatever they have.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, With the children in the crosshairs, so interesting. And so you train attorneys nationally and internationally. Yeah, I mean, is it the same information travel? I mean we're looking at different laws, obviously, but the same communication techniques, I assume is internationally.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean I think about these are human relationships. Human relationships have the same dynamic all over the world. We always say the laws are different but the issues are the same. So clients who say I need my lawyer to communicate with me, I need to understand your billing practices. People all the time in our community are saying I just got this bill for $8,000 last month and I don't know how this happened and I'm so angry because nothing was done. So I think and we tell our clients it's on you to ask this question during a consult, like a lawyer should really be clear in explaining that every six minutes I am billing you. So if you ask me a question, it's $95. And it's not because we're just on the phone for two minutes, it's because I have to now get off research. Whatever your case is, talk to my paralegal, construct an email to get back to you. Like that costs money and I think it's so important and that's not just like a national issue, that's a human issue. People want to feel understood, right?

Speaker 3:

I think another thing that lawyers need to know about clients like ours, which are it's a small percentage, but it's a huge number of people dealing with domestic violence, is, instead of when you meet someone for the first time, just jumping into, like all right, give me the financials and give me all the facts.

Speaker 3:

They need someone. They will hire a lawyer who looks at them in the eye and say I'm so sorry you're going through this. Hire a lawyer who looks at them in the eye and said I'm so sorry you're going through this. Just that one line makes such a difference. Because they want to feel heard. They need empathy. You don't need to get into a whole long conversation I mean they're going to say stuff anyway but just to make them feel like you're validating their feelings, like everybody wants that. And you're dealing with people that have severe trauma, that feel like nobody's listened to them. To just have an attorney say I hear you and similar to negotiation with a difficult person. Just keep your mouth shut and listen to them for a couple of minutes. They're so much more likely to hire you because they feel like you get me.

Speaker 2:

So do you find that thinking about this, training attorneys, do you find that it helps for you to have them set up like how? That trying to think is I'm representing the non-narcissist and how to approach and work with the narcissist? Obviously they're going to try to derail any conversation yeah.

Speaker 3:

So I think it's really important to to try to if there's children involved and that's that's. You know, most of our cases are custody issues as well is to understand that the more conflict there is, the more it's going to bleed onto the kids and make things worse. So we always tell our clients to try to find lawyers that have high social and emotional skills and they're able to do what they can to work well with opposing counsel. A lot of times toxic people hire lawyers like themselves, so the pitfall aggressive attorneys. So we want to not have our clients hire the same thing and have them clash. We want someone who's like let me figure out how I can work with you, let's try to turn the conflict down, let's keep it focused on the kids and getting them through this as smoothly as possible and keep it out of court. So we want people who are non-litigators, who are able to litigate if they have to, but to really have those softer skills and in being able to work not just with the opposing client, because they're not really supposed to talk to them directly, but to their attorney.

Speaker 3:

And I know my partner, chris's friend from college, is a divorce attorney in Virginia and before we did the book we were interviewing. You know all kinds of people and she said you know, just because you have a high conflict person doesn't mean that you're going to have a high conflict divorce. And I was like what, how they can deal with it. They can really lower the conflict. So I think it's important for lawyers to try to cultivate relationships with each other. I know some of our clients get very suspicious like, oh, my lawyer's friends with my ex's lawyer, they're going to run up our bills. No, and we have to tell it to them. That's not the case. You want your lawyer to be friendly with your ex's lawyer because that they can get along and get it done a lot easier and a lot faster. So try not to be suspicious. It's a good thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think training attorneys to see what what's happening early in the process and knowing what to look for.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know it's wasting everyone's time and money, so no attorney wants to run for a year in a process that's just going to exhaust both sides.

Speaker 3:

No, I mean, I think deadlines are so important, like getting a trial date and being like this, this we need to get this done, or else you know a judge is going to decide but to not tolerate also approaching settlement from a point of desperation. A lot of times attorneys will say to the client oh, just give it, and then they'll stop. I'm sure this will settle down later, Like our case has never settled down.

Speaker 3:

No, so not to treat it like a normal case. It is very, very different and to recognize the difference between these kinds of cases and normal divorces.

Speaker 2:

And you said three states that show include coercive control in their domestic violence.

Speaker 3:

What are your others?

Speaker 2:

Seven now. Now it's gotten more. Yep, I was going to ask is it on the docket for others or, you know, is it coming in?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so Massachusetts was last summer and one of our clients. I was so thrilled got the first lifetime restraining order in Massachusetts and she was pro se.

Speaker 3:

She did it herself, so we were really excited about that. So now she doesn't have to go back every single year to get it renewed. But North Carolina, I think, was just there was something with called Jesse's law that I saw the other day and did a little post about that. They're starting to change things, but I feel like it's a wave. So the UK has had coercive control laws for years and now, one by one, our states are taking them on. So it's exciting. But you know, I always tell people, even if your state doesn't have coercive control laws, there's still ways to argue. A persuasive case that involves that invisible abuse where you focus on the patterns of behavior over time and the impact it has on you or your children. So coercive control even though it's been codified in some states, people still don't know the term. It's going to take a while. So it's really about the facts and creating again like a really persuasive case. So just because your state doesn't have it doesn't mean you can't use similar things in your argument.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think the more education we're getting about how narcissists abuse and how to work with them or have them work for you to get the negotiations done, I think it will continue to grow and I thank you so much for your work. You know, having been in that position, and it's great to see what you're doing on the negotiation side and the training attorneys to help with that, so that's a great job. Thank you so much for that.

Speaker 3:

No, my pleasure. I think one of the most rewarding things and I think for attorneys too is to see a client who has really transformed, who gets his or her voice back as they move through the process. And I think that we tell our clients that they have such an opportunity once they get out with their lawyer, to start to start really getting their voice back and learning to ask questions and to say help me understand and being part of the process. So the lawyer is usually the first person, so that's, that's an intimate relationship, it's an important relationship. A lawyer should be aware that you're you're dealing with someone that's that's having a very hard time making decisions and so to try to give them a little bit of grace and understand if it's just some empathy, it's going to change everything Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Now, Lisa, thank you so much for being here. I know my listeners are probably going to reach out to you and want to talk to you about your book and your upcoming program. Where's the best place that they can connect with you and learn more?

Speaker 3:

So social media and Instagram is my home base, and if you just follow BeenThereGotOut, that's easy Our website is BeenThereGotOutcom. If you search BeenThereGotOut, you'll find us everywhere, and my email is Lisa at BeenThereGotOut.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic and I also have a link to your book. We're gonna make sure all these links are in the show notes. And I also have a link to your book. We're going to make sure all these links are in the show notes. So definitely people reach out to her for training and let's get these problems fixed and help people negotiate with those narcissists and come out on the good side of everything. So I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 3:

Thank you my pleasure.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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