Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E79 Setting Boundaries for Empowerment & Growth with Barb Nangle

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 79

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Boundaries might be the missing ingredient in your quest for a successful and fulfilling law practice. In this powerful conversation with boundary coach Barb Nangle, we explore how setting healthy boundaries can transform not only your personal life but also revolutionize your professional relationships and leadership approach.

Barb shares her remarkable story of transformation that began at age 52, proving it's never too late to change ingrained patterns. After decades of therapy that barely scratched the surface of her issues, she discovered through 12-step recovery programs that her core wound was codependence, manifesting as people-pleasing, burnout, and an inability to identify her own needs and preferences. The moment she began establishing clear boundaries, everything changed.

Law firm owners will find particular wisdom in Barb's workplace insights. Working at Yale for 19 years with a chronically unreliable boss, she discovered that complaining and hoping others would change only deepened her resentment. When she shifted to implementing structures she could control, regular meetings, clear communication protocols, and letting her boss experience the natural consequences of her actions, team morale and productivity soared. This principle applies perfectly to law practice management.

The most transformative concept Barb shares is moving beyond a victim mentality. She challenges the common attorney's belief of "I don't have a choice" when faced with demanding deadlines or difficult clients. Recognizing your agency in every situation, whether choosing to complete weekend work because it aligns with partnership goals or choosing to set limits that protect your wellbeing, creates empowerment and prevents burnout. The sustainable law practice requires filling your cup first through non-negotiable commitments to rest and personal connections.

Reach Barb here:
https://higherpowercc.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbnangle/
https://www.instagram.com/higherpowercoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@higherpowercoaching/
https://www.facebook.com/HigherPowerCoaching/



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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, barbara Nangle, to the show today. At 52, barb's life, transformed through 12-step recovery after decades of therapy, merely scanned the surface, addressing codependence, unlocked healing from intergenerational trauma, childhood wounds and compulsive overeating. Learning to build healthy boundaries revolutionized her relationships, impacting her professional life at Yale. Formerly masking her struggles with substance use and overeating, she shed over 100 pounds and confronted her deep-seated negativity and fear. Driven by a desire for growth and social justice, barb now empowers professional women to break patterns of self-neglect. Through boundary coaching, speaking and her podcast Fragmented to Whole, she guides women to reclaim their power and say no to what no longer serves them, fostering a world where inner change drives societal impact. I'm excited to have you here, barb.

Speaker 3:

Welcome Me too. I can't wait. I'm really excited. I love to share my story, especially because I was older when the transition happened and people have these ideas like it's too late, I can't change, and no, it's not. And then also the dramatic impact that learning how to build healthy boundaries can have on your life, where you can feel like your life is out of control and you're overwhelmed, and all that and you can start to realize, wow, I actually do have way more control over my life than I thought I did.

Speaker 2:

Excellent. Yeah, it is very interesting, and I find what's interesting about your story is you were already going through therapy, but it wasn't reaching the boundary issue that you needed to address. How did you come across that realization and move forward?

Speaker 3:

Well, it starts with the fact that I had met a homeless man named Dan at my church. He was a parishioner and it happened at the same time that I had volunteered to serve, to lead a project serving homeless people at my church, and I felt like it was like you know, the universe had provided me with a homeless person to have as a friend so that when I was serving homeless people, they would be really personified for me not just the homeless, but homeless people. And that was true, he was really helpful. But at the same time I developed this, what I now know as a codependent friendship with him. So about three months into our friendship, I invited him to stay at my home during a really bad snowstorm here in New Haven, connecticut. I now know that is not normal to invite a homeless person to stay in your home, and he stayed. And then I invited him another time and another time and within a few weeks, marilyn, he was practically living with me and not long after I felt trapped in my own home. So he was a self-proclaimed addict and alcoholic. I look back now and I think he may have also had a personality disorder, because this guy messed with my head in a way I had never experienced.

Speaker 3:

So I was in therapy one day talking about Dan, and in the middle of a sentence I went oh my God, do you think I need to go to Al-Anon? And my therapist was like yes. So just in case people that are listening don't know what Al-Anon is, it is a 12-step recovery program for the loved ones of alcoholics. And if you're not familiar with 12-step recovery, you've probably heard of Alcoholics Anonymous, which was the first 12-step recovery program developed in the 1930s, and Al-Anon was the second one.

Speaker 3:

And you may wonder why is there a 12-step recovery program necessary for the loved ones of alcoholics? And that is because the things we do that we think are helping, sort of almost naturally, actually end up backf and they cause resentment in your life, because you start making them the focal point of your life and trying to get them to stop drinking, get into rehab, go to detox, go to meetings, whatever it is, and you neglect yourself. So I had heard of Al-Anon and so I went home and I went to Google and I was looking for Al-Anon but I came across this word, codependent and I was like wait a minute, how do I not know this word? I'll talk about that in just a second, about what that means. But now I had started therapy when I was about 15. So this is 37 years of therapy not continuous, but close.

Speaker 3:

I'd also read a gajillion self-help books, did the seminars and the workshops and the retreats and I was like, how did I not know this word, codependent? And from a codependent person like the classic. Codependent is in some kind of a relationship, whether a bromantic or familial, with an addict or an alcoholic, but it doesn't always have to be the case, and so they're essentially focused on that which is outside themselves, so often other people, what they're doing, what they're not doing, but they feel an obligation to often help rescue, fix and save others, which turns into enabling. So I was like, wow, so it turns out there is a 12 step recovery program called codependency on it. So I started going to that and very quickly felt a sense of relief. And I remember saying to someone very soon I think I need to reparent myself. But I didn't know that reparenting is actually a thing that people do. And a few weeks into my Codependence Anonymous recovery I went to Cape Cod, massachusetts, to visit a couple of friends, one of whom had been in Alcoholics Anonymous for a long time, and I was like you're going to love this, I'm going to Codependents Anonymous. So she said, well, let's see if we can find a meeting while we're here and I'll go with you and she couldn't. But she found an ACA meeting which I had heard of as ACOA they're the same and that stands for Adult Children, adult children of alcoholics which I did not think that I qualified for but she did because her dad's an alcoholic. So I said I'll go with you and it turns out it's actually adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. Now that I qualify for and I walked in and one of the opening readings they said we reparent ourselves and I was like what. And then they read the 14 traits of an adult child and I was bowled over and my friend tells me I sobbed the whole meeting. I don't remember that.

Speaker 3:

I came home to New Haven, I started going to ACA meetings. I went to both of those meetings, aca and CODA. For a year I started, I really started working the 12 steps in ACA, started feeling dramatic shifts very quickly and for me, like I learned so many things about myself, despite all those decades of personal work which I think of that, you know, the decades of the reading and the therapy as sort of scratching the surface of the iceberg of my life, marilyn, whereas recovery melted the iceberg and there are many, many reasons for that, but because my core wound is codependence. Learning how to build healthy boundaries changed everything. It was like I determined like where do I end and other people begin. What's okay with me and not okay with me? What do I like, want, need and prefer?

Speaker 3:

Because I was such a people pleaser and such a chameleon, I didn't really know those things. Now I do want to say I have always felt like a powerful woman of agency. I was not a wallflower. I had an opinion about everything, so in some ways this was kind of shocking to me that I didn't know who I was. Well, a couple of years into my recovery journey, I had been working at Yale University and I got laid off because our grant ended and I found my way into the world of entrepreneurship, startups and innovation in New Haven and at Yale and eventually started my own business. I started my podcast right away and that's called Fragmented to Whole Life Lessons from 12 step recovery. I didn't think it would have anything to do with my business and it's now the number one way that I get clients but I started there is all of this wisdom and 12 step recovery, none of which I had heard of.

Speaker 3:

So I discovered so many things about myself and recovery. I didn't know. I didn't even know about boundaries. I didn't know I didn't have them. I didn't know that I had intergenerational family dysfunction, childhood trauma. I was mired in victim mentality that I lied all the time. I really thought, I truly believed I was an honest person and I not only lied about like cigarettes and drugs and alcohol and relationships, but I lied about people pleasing and I said things were okay, that they were not. I was. I had lots of really wildly unrealistic expectations of myself, other people in the world, I mean I could go on None of those things ever came out in therapy and the introspection and the self-development work that I did.

Speaker 3:

So I was like, let me get this wisdom out into the world. And in the beginning I was just sort of coaching and you know, as you know, you have to have some kind of a niche and it just made sense for me to focus on boundaries and the really in the last year and a half or so I realized I really want to focus on professional women because I was a professional woman and when I started building boundaries when I worked at Yale, I was astonished at the ripple effect on my team and I was like wait a minute, why are all these things changing? I'm the only one in recovery and it just goes to show that when one person changes the dynamics of their interactions with those around them, it changes things around them. So you can't control other people, but you can influence other people. And so one of the myths about boundaries is people think I'm going to start setting boundaries and I'm going to be able to control other people, and that couldn't be further from the truth. What's actually happening is you're controlling you, so my boundaries are for me and about me. And another thing I heard someone say is my boundaries are for me, not against you. I don't recommend people say that out loud to others. It's something that you can find in your head. But they're for me, not against you. And the reason I think that's important is because people are especially women are afraid to hurt other people's feelings and they don't want to be seen as mean or rude or bitchy or cold. And so when I realized my boundaries are for me, I'm taking care of me in ways that no one else can take care of me, I'm going to end up burnt out and I'm not going to be able to continue to practice law, you know, if that's the profession that you're in, and so you know really learning that I have to take care of me.

Speaker 3:

And I heard Brooke Castillo from the Life Coach School says this. She says if someone must be disappointed, it shouldn't be you. Well, I say if someone's feelings must be hurt, it shouldn't be you, and you've probably been hurting your own feelings your entire life by not setting boundaries with people, and there's a difference between hurting someone's feelings and harming them. So you might hurt their feelings by setting a boundary with them. You're not going to harm them and, depending on the person, you might actually heal the relationship because you're becoming honest with them about what's okay and not okay. But even if you don't heal the relationship with them, you're going to heal the relationship with yourself because you've started to show up for yourself and follow through for yourself in a way that you probably never did before, and that was the case for me.

Speaker 3:

So I always felt like I had high self-esteem and liked myself, but recovery showed me I did not love myself and I did not feel worthy, which, if you had told me that I had low self-worth, I wouldn't have believed you. But when I look at my track record of the things I did to myself and the relationships and the toxic situations and workplaces I stayed in, that is not the behavior of a woman who feels worthy, and I built. I truly love myself in this deep and profound way now and I truly feel worthy, and building healthy boundaries has everything to do with both of those things. So I'm going to stop there, because I could clearly go on forever to do with both of those things.

Speaker 2:

So I'm going to stop there, because I could clearly go on forever. Well, what I want to do is let's kind of dissect what changed. So, when you finally realized that you finally put up barriers or your boundaries and you took care of yourself, your team changed. How did you see this? So, thinking about like a law firm, you know, the lawyer, as they're growing, has to take on more of a leadership role than a day-to-day in the business role. Well, if they're also, you know, realizing where their boundaries are, how do you see that that's going to affect the team? How did it affect your team that you realized something changed here?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So what happened for me was okay. Let me just tell you this I loved my boss. I loved her dearly. She drove me insane.

Speaker 3:

She was one of the most unreliable people I had ever met in my entire life and for the 19 years I worked for her, I kept wanting her to change and I was waiting for her to change, to show up on time to do what she said she was going to do, to stop blowing people off, to follow the agenda for the meeting that she wrote. And she didn't do any of those things. So what I realized was she's not changing Like in this deep and profound way. I really internalized it. So what can I actually do? What is within my purview? So I'm just going to give you real concrete examples of exactly what I did.

Speaker 3:

So we had twice monthly large team meetings. So I took my smaller team, which was mostly admin people, and I said here's what we're going to do Every Monday, we're going to have a check-in meeting for 15 minutes, unless we don't need to, and on the Wednesdays that we're not having the large team meetings, we're going to have a small team meeting and we're going to make sure that the communication is flowing, because what would happen is we would run into each other in the hallway and have an impromptu meeting is we would run into each other in the hallway and have an impromptu meeting, and then we'd go into meetings.

Speaker 3:

The boss would be late, we'd be chatting about every day our lives instead of talking business. And so I said we're gonna turn that around so that when we happen to run each other in the kitchen, in the hallway, we can chat about our personal lives, because we're meeting on a regular basis to talk business. So, and I also said to them here's what we're going to do If you need to share something with someone on this team, the first question is can this wait till the Monday or the Wednesday meeting? If it cannot, then it's like how do I need? Do I need to see them in person? Send them an email? If it's in person or phone call, first words out of your mouth are going to be do you have a moment Right? Give them, you get consent for them before you launch into whatever you're doing.

Speaker 3:

Oh, also, who needs to know? Is it everybody on this team or is it just one person? So that we're keeping the communication flowing on a very consistent basis with the people who need to know. And what ended up happening was morale went way up, pardon me, productivity went way up, communication started flowing. I'm going to put a throat drop in. I apologize.

Speaker 2:

I agree. Those hallway meetings are such a huge waste of time, but it's not the only time you can.

Speaker 3:

Right, because what's usually happening is two people are making decisions that affect other people, and those other people don't even know and nobody's like okay.

Speaker 3:

So how do we make sure information is flowing in all the ways that it needs to? And so what ended up happening was and I also so for my boss, her office was next to mine, so what would always happen for years is people would come to my office where is she? And I would always either try to find her, make excuses for her, cover up for her, and I would be like I don't know, maybe you should call her and I started letting her have the repercussions of blowing people off and not showing up on time and not following through on things, but I started taking responsibility for things that were well within my purview and the other thing. So this is a little bit like I don't feel shame about this anymore, but I did for a long time Like I realized when I got in recovery that I gossiped a lot and primarily about my boss, like I didn't know. Talking negatively about her behind her back for 19 years was gossip, which is kind of hilarious, because that's the definition of gossip.

Speaker 3:

Well, I realized I've got to stop that. When I stopped gossiping about her, marilyn, my resentment against her went down by like 90%. I realized I was making things worse. So things happen one time, like if something negative happens one time it's meant to happen, one time You're not meant to relive it over and over again.

Speaker 3:

And on reflection, after I left Yale and did more and more 12-step recovery work, I realized I actually created a culture of expectation at my job that we focus on problems, not solutions. We wait around for people to change rather than stepping in and doing what we can do what is within our control, rather than stepping in and doing what we can do what is within our control. And where I worked, every year we had a crop of pre-doctoral psychology fellows and every two years we had a crop of post-doctoral psychology fellows. So there was young people coming in at the beginning of their careers. I'm setting the tone for them. This is what you do. You talk about problems, you bitch about the boss behind your back and I will tell you, not one of those people ever said to me this is really unhealthy Bark. So I know I modeled for those people to go out into their careers and complain boundaries and being clear about what's mine and what's not, and also acting as an honest woman of integrity, which to me has everything to do with healthy boundaries. I also created a ripple effect, going forward with my small team and then, of course, we had an impact on the larger team and the organization as a whole. And then the people that were there for the last two years while it was in recovery as the you know, the psychology fellows got to see we don't wait around for people to change.

Speaker 3:

And the other thing that I never did I, we, we never went to the. Something has to change. And people told me for years you should just leave. But I loved my job. It was mission oriented. I was a program coordinator for urban education, prevention and policy research. I was there to change the education system. All of us were mission oriented and it's a pretty cushy job to work at Yale. They have amazing benefits. You get lots of incredible professional development and and all that stuff. So it just didn't feel like an option for me to leave and so I mean I think the examples that I've used are probably very parallel to things that can happen, especially for associates that are working their way up to become partners.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly, I mean, it's just it's interesting. You keep wanting your boss to change and that's just not going to happen. So then you find ways to excel around that and and we all have that friend that's always late, chronically, and you can't fix that. No matter, even if you tell them to show up 30 minutes, I'm like they're still going to be late.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So if you're thinking about looking on a team and or maybe you're the head attorney thinking about growth we're talking work life balance and keeping that within your boundaries Can you speak to that of how that would be?

Speaker 3:

You could take that under control, and that is that if you are burnt out, you are trying to pour from an empty cup. It's not working and it's going to get worse, so you're not going to be able to sustain your career. So, if you think about the metaphor of a cup, what I want you to do is fill your cup so full that it's overflowing, that you give from the overflow rather than from even the cup, nevermind an empty cup. Well, the only way you're going to have overflow is if you take responsibility for filling your cup first, which means you have got to take vacations, you have got to take weekends off, you have got to connect with the loved ones in your life. Like it's non-negotiable, like those things have to go.

Speaker 3:

Do you know Stephen Covey's metaphor of the big rocks in the bucket?

Speaker 3:

Yes, right, okay. So, like he says, you put the big rocks in the bucket, then the gravel fits around it and then the sand around that. Well, the big rocks are the things that are important in your life. So you put the vacations on the calendar and they are sacrosanct, and you plan your life around them, and I get like in the law business it doesn't always work like that, but you know if you're working at a firm that doesn't want you to do that kind of things, maybe you need to leave the firm. You know, I don't really know. It's pretty clear to me with the lawyers that I've worked as that there's this tension going on right now where the old guard is like you should be working 90 hours a week and that's how it works, and the young people are like nope, not doing it, and they're seen as somehow like lazy and not wanting it and they're like no, actually my mental health and my family and my nervous system regulation is important to me and that actually matters.

Speaker 2:

If you don't put those rocks on the calendar, you'll never get to them.

Speaker 3:

You can't expect someone else to put you know to allot time for your rocks.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my coach actually refers to it as a rhythm of life. So you're busy during the week or whatever. You need to remind yourself and take that Saturday afternoon and take a walk, you know, and enjoy some time away from the stress or whatever.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, a rhythm of life will help you get that work-life balance, yeah, yeah, like unplugging from the work, because if you're feeling overwhelmed, chances are you're working in this hyper aroused state. You're like in fight or flight mode all the time, and it's really here's the thing. You actually can't access your executive functioning in your brain when you, as well as you can, when you're in a calm state, like you're going to be thinking much more clearly and be when you have clarity, you can be way more productive. You know, one of the things that I said when I did my talk at the Connecticut Bar Association a couple of weeks ago that landed really well for people is I talked about how we have these like false beliefs in our head, and one of the examples I gave, which is I don't have a choice. So let's say you're trying to become a partner and a partner hands you a file on Friday at five and they say I need to stop by nine am. Well, what we tell ourselves is I don't have a choice. Well, actually you do, and if you've decided I'm an associate and I'm working my way up to become partner, the choice has been pre-made and what that means is you get to take ownership. This is what I chose and I'm going to continue choosing it. I'm going to let go of being upset that this happened and I'm going to not complain about the profession. I'm not to let go of being upset that this happened and I'm going to not complain about the profession. I'm not going to complain about the boss or the partner and I'm going to put all the energy I have into doing the work, or I'm going to say I'm out. This choice is not going to work for me. So you actually have a choice. You are empowered.

Speaker 3:

And so one of the one of the things that I do that, I think, really anchors my clients before I even start working with them as I go through this process, to help them determine their top five values. And it's not just what are the words that are my values, it's what does that value mean to you and why is it important to you? And then we use those values as anchors, as guideposts or guardrails for how and when to make decisions and what boundaries to set. Same thing, when you're in law practice, like if your value is I want to be partner in X number of years, then you're going to be making decisions that are going to put you forward to that, but they should include how to take care of yourself, and you're in charge of that. No one's going to give you that. You have to say.

Speaker 3:

This is non-negotiable, like if you want me to be the high performer that I am and you want me to sustain this, then I need to be able to take whatever number of vacations per year, weekends off, whatever that is and you know I'll tell you, marilyn, before I got into recovery.

Speaker 3:

I think of myself now as, like I was, a volunteer-holic. I've volunteered for 15 different nonprofit organizations over the years. Wow, okay, I actually, now that I'm in recovery, all of my community service goes into 12-step recovery. In terms of hours per week, I actually give more hours per week now than I ever did before, but I do it strategically rather than at the drop of a hat. I do it by choice, not a sense of obligation or compulsion, and I do it after filling my cup first. So my giving is sustainable, so you can learn to give in a way that is sustainable, so that you can have a long career where you are not burnt out, where you're enjoying your life right now, not waiting for some day when you're the partner or you start your own law firm or whatever that someday is like you get to enjoy today.

Speaker 2:

I love that and I love it A lot of. It is also a different mindset about what you're doing and have the choice you make. So go ahead.

Speaker 3:

Go ahead. So I wanted to say that coming out of victim mentality was, hands down, the biggest paradigm shift of my recovery. And I am not the quintessential like well, it was me, the world is against me kind of victim. My victim mentality way more subtle. It was like if only she would show up on time, do things the way she said she was going to do not blow people off or in relationships he would, you know, whatever, fill in the blank, then everything would be okay. That was like I was like, oh my god. And then when you so, if you're engaged in if only thinking, that's an indicator of victim mentality.

Speaker 3:

If you're constantly complaining, if you're constantly blaming, you're probably in victim mentality.

Speaker 3:

And learning to come out of that has been huge for me.

Speaker 3:

I think I probably have like nine podcast episodes about coming out of victim mentality, because every time a new layer comes off for me, I do another episode.

Speaker 3:

And so this business of making choice victims don't perceive choice. So when you actively recognize this is a choice that I'm making, you are stepping out of victim mentality and you're becoming a creator of your life rather than a victim of your life or of the law profession or of the firm or of the partner. You get to decide what's okay with you and not okay with you, and when it's not okay with you, then you are the one that gets to take responsibility for doing whatever needs to be done. So that could be. It could be leaving their profession, it could be leaving the firm, it could be sucking it up and working the whole weekend. You know you get to make the decision, but it's empowering to understand you have choices and you're much less likely to get burnt out when you feel like you're having a choice, and you're also much less likely when you stop bitching and complaining about things and do the work.

Speaker 2:

Yes, make a choice and it does make life easier. I mean, you feel more in control, like you said, empowered, and that's kind of what we want. So many of us get caught up in that people-pleasing mode and, no, I agree Making a decision that this is what I want for me. I love that, Barb. This has been really interesting and empowering. I love this conversation. I want to make sure that everybody checks out your podcast and where can we reach you and connect with you?

Speaker 3:

So if you want to go to my podcast, you can hop on over to Fragmented To Whole Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery on any podcast outlet or you can go to fragmentedtowholecom. And then my favorite place to hang out on social media is on Instagram at Higher Power Coaching, but I have tons of cool stuff on my website. It's higherpowercccom.

Speaker 3:

By the time this comes out, I will probably have my course for attorneys. It's going to be called the Sustainable Lawyer and it will have all kinds of great stuff in it, and I'm absolutely going to be back in touch with you when that's ready. And actually one thing I would like to offer I will share it with you is I created a handout. The exact name of it is escaping me at the moment. I want to give it to you so that you can put it in the show notes, and it's something like Practical Boundary Strategies in the Law Profession. It's called something like that, so I'll give that to you so that you can put it in the show notes so people can have that. Just from listening to this episode.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that. Always adding value, that's great. I'm really looking forward to your course as well.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much for inviting me and thanks to you for what you do. I've had quite a number of clients, private clients who are attorneys, and they need you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, nice, nice. Well, thank you so much for being here and everyone that's listening. Go check out our podcast and watch the show notes for a free giveaway.

Speaker 3:

Alrighty. Thanks, Marilyn.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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