Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E93 Border Searches & AI Identification with Saul Bienenfeld

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 93

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What happens to your digital privacy when you cross international borders? The answer might shock you.

Veteran NYC criminal defense attorney Saul Bienenfeld pulls back the curtain on the murky legal landscape of border searches in this riveting conversation. With over 35 years of courtroom experience, including time as a prosecutor with a 98% conviction rate, Saul delivers straight talk about your rights when customs agents demand access to your electronic devices.

"There's something called the border search exception to the Fourth Amendment," Saul explains, revealing how this creates a zone where normal constitutional protections may not apply. While agents routinely search for contraband like child pornography, they can also look for evidence of financial crimes or other offenses, often without warrants. U.S. citizens can refuse to provide passwords, but your devices may still be seized for forensic examination.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Saul discusses how artificial intelligence and surveillance technology are transforming the field of criminal defense work. From facial recognition systems that identify you before reaching passport control to AI tools that can analyze hundreds of hours of video footage in minutes, these technologies cut both ways, helping both prosecution and defense teams build their cases.

Perhaps most valuable is Saul's advice on selecting the right defense attorney: "You need somebody knowledgeable on the law, somebody who has experience in the law...but there's one more thing, you need to get along with your criminal defense attorney." This human connection allows for honest communication, which Saul identifies as crucial for effective representation.

Reach Saul here:
www.bienenfeldlaw.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/saul-bienenfeld-a8324116/
https://www.facebook.com/bienenfeldlaw
https://www.instagram.com/bienenfeldlaw/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bienenfeld-law/


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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. So, whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, saul Bienenfeld, to the show today. Saul is a veteran New York City criminal defense attorney with over 35 years of courtroom experience. A former prosecutor with a 98% conviction rate, he now defends clients in serious, high-stakes cases such as federal charges, sex crimes and major felonies. Saul is blunt, experienced and focused on protecting rights when it matters most. I'm excited to have you here, saul Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Wow, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here, Marilyn. Really great honor for me.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, so I'm really excited to have this conversation. So many interesting points. Tell us a little bit about your journey so far.

Speaker 3:

You know, when I was growing up, I always wanted to be an actor and my parents didn't quite encourage me to be an actor. They said, you know, go to Hollywood and see how many actors are not working. So I needed to find an alternative and they suggested they wanted me to be a doctor, but they suggested, as an alternative to acting, go into law. And I looked into it and I said, well, if I'm a litigator and a trial attorney, I will be acting in front of a jury, in front of a judge. I'll be acting every day if I go ahead and do this. So I looked into it and law school was great.

Speaker 3:

I loved law school and I did all the clinics where you actually get to defend clients or you get to appear in front of judges or you get to be at the appellate divisions and listen to arguments and an actor. I did it for the right reasons. I wanted to help people. There were people out there with some serious charges against them that they don't deserve or they're innocent of, and I wanted to help them. I wanted to show that I could make a difference in people's lives and I have made a difference in people's lives and it's a pleasure to do so and it's an honor to do so and, quite frankly, it's an honor to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I absolutely agree, and you have been on both sides of the aisle. It makes a big difference. You've seen both sides Most definitely, Most definitely.

Speaker 3:

You've seen it from the prosecution side and you can definitely use that in the defense side.

Speaker 2:

Great. Now I want to talk a little bit about something that's really timely, okay, and that's our digital privacy at the border. So you and I had a little bit of conversation about that the other day I'd really love to talk about. You know, now it's summertime, people are traveling. It's going to come into play. What can they legally take from us? What can they do when we come into or through as US citizens? What should we look at?

Speaker 3:

This is such a great topic, it's so timely as well. We all know that there's something called the Fourth Amendment, search and seizure. But where does that extend to what could happen? We know that if I'm walking down the street, a random police officer or an FBI agent can't stop me and go through my pockets, right, he has to have a warrant to do so. He has to have probable cause to do so, reasonable suspicion, whatever the level is in your state or in the federal government. So what happens at a border? What happens when we're crossing into the border with a country?

Speaker 3:

The United States of America has a purpose to protect its borders from contraband, whatever that may be. Well, we all know, when we come back from a trip overseas, we go through customs and immigration. Right, the first thing that happens is they look at your passport and they determine whether you are a US citizen, they should let you in. Or if you're a green card holder, hopefully, let you in. Or if you're a non-citizen. And then do you have the proper paperwork, a visa, to come into this country. But they also check your luggage. They check what are you bringing into the country, because that's where they want to prevent contraband from coming in. So there's something called the border search exception to the Fourth Amendment. Now this has been interpreted in many different ways and one of the ways it has been interpreted is there's no rules at the border, there's no Fourth Amendment rules. We could search whatever we want, we could look in any closed containers that we want, because we do want to protect the country from various drugs from coming in. Even there's an agricultural rules to prevent it from certain plants coming in, certain diseases coming in. So we's an agricultural rules to prevent it from certain plants coming in, certain diseases coming in. So we do want to protect the United States of America and therefore there is no rules when it comes to the Fourth Amendment. That's how it is right now.

Speaker 3:

Anyone coming in has no reasonable expectation of privacy on their person or on their body, including their luggage. You get, get checked, get inspected. But what about your cell phone? What about your computer? What about something that we know that the cell phone doesn't have drugs inside of it? Right, You're not going to be able to fit drugs inside. For the most part, nothing meaningful at least. Right, and your computer doesn't have drugs inside.

Speaker 3:

But what kind of contraband can they look for? Or what kind of evidence of aband can they look for, or what kind of evidence of a crime can they look for? And here is where the states and the circuits are all divided and it's a free-for-all, quite frankly, at this point because, for example, in New York, in the Second Circuit, there is no general law right now because there hasn't been a Second Circuit decision or a Supreme Court decision on what is the standard at this point. So, for example, a client coming into the country or even, for example, leaving the country on an international trip is subject to the border search exception and an agent, a federal agent, could go ahead and say give me your phone, tell me your password and start looking through your phone. Now, most of the time, what they're looking for is child pornography. They're looking for child pornography which is obviously illegal and should not be transported anywhere and is contraband. It's considered contraband and that's what they're looking for. But, by the way, they could also look for other evidence of crime. So, in other words, if they think that you have financial records on your phone or on your computer, that is evidence of a crime, they could search it and find it at the border, because the rule is there's no more. Fourth Amendment rights at a border. So what happens at a border when you're asked to give over your phone? Let's take an example that most of them use it coming into the country.

Speaker 3:

Okay, let's take the example of the US citizen coming into the country. Right, what typically would happen is you go to your passport, you hand in your passport and what usually should happen is your passport gets stamped and they say go ahead, go get your luggage and leave. All right, but what sometimes happens is you're sent for what's called a secondary inspection. Okay, the reason people are sent for secondary inspections is either the Customs and Border Patrol agent who is looking at your passport has some suspicion that something's wrong, but that's not usually the case. Usually, the case is the computer says send this person for a secondary inspection. We need to look more into this person.

Speaker 3:

So they send you to this other room in JFK Airport. It's a huge room with a big bench on the side, some individual chairs, and they take your passport, they put it in a folder and they put it on their desk, okay, and then the next agent that's available to interview you, you'll pick up the folder, open it up and say oh, saul Bienenfeld, come on back, we want to talk to you and they go ahead and they'll ask you basic questions when are you coming from? How long did you stay out of the country? What was the purpose of your trip? And then they'll get to the meat of the potatoes. Do you have any electronic devices on you? Do you have a computer with you? Do you have a laptop with you? Do you have a phone with you? Let me see them and you hand it to them usually. And the next question is what's your password? And 99.99% of the people right away say oh, my password is 1234, whatever their password is.

Speaker 4:

Exactly.

Speaker 3:

Always keep your password Okay. Their password is Exactly. Always put their password Okay. And now the agent is scrolling through you. The agent takes your phone, let's say the first thing the agent does is he puts it on airplane mode. The reason he puts it on airplane mode is he doesn't want it to be able to be something downloaded onto the phone from that point or something leaving the phone at that point. So it's on airplane mode, so it can't interact with the internet. And he starts looking through your phone and we all know, as criminal defense attorneys, what he's looking for. He's looking for child pornography, he's looking at the videos, he's looking at the pictures and he's looking at what people think are the hidden apps, like as if a Customs Border Patrol agent doesn't understand that there were hidden apps on the phone. They know, they know all the hidden apps.

Speaker 3:

So, when you go ahead and you spent $9.99 to buy what looks like a calculator but it's really has phone. It has pictures on it. They know that. Okay, it's no big secret. It might be a secret from your girlfriend or your spouse, but it's no big secret to the Customs and Border Patrol agent. They know All right, and that is more of suspicious. It's also more suspicious that you have an app that has hidden photos in it or hidden videos on it, and they go through it. They may or they may not find child pornography, who knows? If they do find it, well then they'll call what's called the Homeland Security Investigator, the HSI agent, who's in charge of protecting this country from child pornography. It'll take 20, 30 minutes, maybe an hour, for the person to come down and that person will then interview you again, look at the pictures again, do a more thorough search and either arrest you or just take down your information. Let you go and you'll get arrested at another time. I guarantee you you will get arrested at a later time. It always happens.

Speaker 2:

And they keep your phone, yeah.

Speaker 3:

They keep. They see at this point they seize your phone. Your phone may have evidence of a crime. So they seize your phone, okay, and they'll give you a receipt for your phone. And you go on your way and you pray. They'll give you a receipt for your phone and you go on your way and you pray. Hopefully you call a criminal defense attorney at that point who could go ahead and see what the story is Exactly. Now what do they do with the phone?

Speaker 3:

In some cases, they actually apply for a search warrant so that they could forensically search the phone, and in some cases they don't apply for the search warrant and forensically search your phone without a warrant.

Speaker 3:

They don't apply for the search warrant and forensically search your phone without a warrant. Again, it depends where you are, what the law is, what agent took your phone, and this is where the controversy always comes up whether they need a warrant or not. In New York right now, in the Second Circuit, that law has not been established whether there's a need for a warrant. There's judges who say, yes, you do need a warrant, and there are judges who say no, you don't need a warrant, it's a border search, you don't need a warrant when they forensically search your phone, they attach it to a computer that will find every single picture ever taken and downloaded onto that phone, whether it's hidden, whether it was deleted, whether it was erased, whether you double deleted it, triple deleted it, whether you took the phone, smashed it and threw it in the ocean, but then took another phone and downloaded it from the cloud, it's there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And it will be found, and now they have more evidence of a crime and more contraband, which is child pornography, also known as CSAM, child exploitation, abuse material.

Speaker 4:

OK.

Speaker 3:

Child sexual abuse material CSAM Then you usually get arrested at that point and then you'll definitely need a criminal defense attorney and there were a lot of issues with that and then we'll make motions to try to get the evidence suppressed. We'll try to get you bail Very hard to get bail in some of these cases and the case will continue. But what rights do you have if you decide I'm not giving you my password? Can you actually say I don't want to give you my password?

Speaker 2:

Right Good question.

Speaker 3:

It's a great question. So, as a US citizen, you have the right to say no, I am not giving you my password. I am not answering any questions. I am a US citizen. You have to let me into the country Now. You don't have to give me back my phone, and in most cases they won't give you back your phone. Okay, but they have to let you into the country. If you're not a US citizen, they don't have to let you into the country. So if you're not a US citizen and you don't want to give your password, chances are you're in the next flight back to whatever country of origin you came from. Okay, but as a US citizen, you don't have to give your password and you go ahead and they have to let you into the country, okay.

Speaker 2:

Let me ask you a good one, to sort of interrupt. What if you're naturalized?

Speaker 3:

Well, you know it's interesting With the current president. I still hope that they let green card holders in, but I'm not talking about immigration laws here. We're talking clearly about privacy and electronic devices. Don't get me started on that. It's a great question, but let's not go there.

Speaker 3:

I'm not an immigration lawyer, but I understand what's happening in this country at this point. Usually, green card holders are considered as if they're US citizens and they would let you into the country. But, like I said, the state of the law could be changing as I'm speaking to you right now. So they're going to let you into the country if you're a citizen. You don't have to give them a password, but they're going to hold your phone and they may apply for a warrant to do a forensic search of that phone. They have to break into the phone, they have to get the code somehow. They may send subpoenas over to the Motorola or the Apple or whoever the manufacturer is, to find out how to get into the phone and they'll get into the phone and eventually they'll find the. If there's CSAM material on it, they'll find it. But again, you don't have to give the code and if you're a US citizen, you come into the country. However, like I said, every case I read, they gave over the code and they opened up the phone and they either found material at that point or they kept it for a forensic evaluation and found material later on and arrested the individual and charged them with some serious federal crimes.

Speaker 3:

And that's where we're at today and the law is not clear.

Speaker 3:

The law really is not clear at least not in New York whether a warrant is required or whether it's an all-out search fest. I could do whatever I want because you're at the border In Brooklyn right now and in Nassau County in New York. It's an all-out search fest because the US attorneys believe if you're crossing a border, you're coming into international territory and that includes JFK Airport, for example, an international airport, and you're traveling internationally. We don't need a warrant, we can do whatever we want with your phone. We can stop you and we can search your phone forensically, even not just manually, but forensically, and we don't need any suspicion, we don't need anything. You have no rights to your privacy. And Fourth Amendment at the border and that's how they're holding right now and there's a lot of cases out there that the Second Circuit is now interested in hearing and they're hearing it. And there's two cases in particular that they're hearing right now and we'll see what happens with them if the law will change, but right now that is the status of the law.

Speaker 2:

I think, it's.

Speaker 3:

I'm sorry, go ahead. It applies to computers as well. Same thing applies to flash drives, same thing applies to the SD card in a camera. There are people who come in from overseas and they had a camera with them, thinking, oh you know what are you gonna do with the camera? And all they wanna do is remove that SD card and they're gonna search that card later on or they'll search it at the airport. So it's not just phones, it's any electronic device or any storage apparatus.

Speaker 2:

So they're specifically looking for right now we assume they're specifically looking for child pornography, anything along those lines.

Speaker 3:

You know. It's so interesting that you say that because one of the leading cases is United States versus Fox. Such an interesting case because it has nothing to do with child pornography. Fox was accused of basically stealing money during the COVID era when government was giving out tremendous amounts of money to everyone. If you said I had a job and I employed 10 people, the government wrote you a check. So she was suspected of that.

Speaker 3:

She also was a flight attendant for an international airline and she was in New York. She was based in New York. So they put an alert on her that when she travels internationally and comes back, get her phone because there's no rules, right? Oh, okay, she traveled internationally. She came back to Miami, right Into the international airport. She was taken across for a secondary inspection Remember, she's a flight attendant. They said give me your phone. They took the phone. They said okay, goodbye, go back to New York. The phone was then sent to the New York headquarters. The phone was searched. Now that judge happened to have suppressed the evidence as it pertained to Fox, but there were two other COVID defendants on this case and he said I'm not suppressing the evidence as it pertains to the other code defendants. Okay, because there is evidence there of a financial crime that was found on her phone.

Speaker 2:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 3:

But most cases they're looking for child pornography. But Fox is an interesting case because they were looking for evidence of a financial crime.

Speaker 2:

Interesting, you know. It's like remember that old 90s movie, the Terminal where Tom Hanks was stuck in the airport.

Speaker 2:

I think that's one of the things that people a great movie I think a lot of people think an airport, once you get through security you're in a gray area. It's like so that's interesting. And so you've also got people that download music and download movies and stuff like that. And then, of course, then there's the not being happy with the current administration. Maybe you've got evidence of that and that's a whole nother level of questioning. But I love the idea that you don't have to give them your password and also turn off the biofeedback so they can't just point it at your face and you can unlock your phone.

Speaker 3:

I always tell people you have the right to remain silent. Please use the right. There's nothing you have to say or do that's going to change their minds. You have the right to remain silent. Everyone knows it. They've seen it on every single TV show Use the darn right.

Speaker 2:

And it's innocent sounding questions that are kind of leading you down a path. When you come through immigration, you know, border control I've always heard people getting very cautious about that and then all of a sudden it's like OK, you seem nervous. It's like I'm just coming home. You know, it feels kind of criminal to come through some airports going into the US. So that is interesting. So I love that you've given us the advice. When they take our phone, I appreciate that. Let's talk about being in the surveillance area, how AI and tech is changing the criminal defense. Can you speak to that?

Speaker 3:

Yes, definitely, wow. So facial recognition is a huge law enforcement tool at this point, and facial recognition could be used live or it could be used later on as a recorded instrument. If we talk about live and let's keep with airports there are cameras as soon as you walk off the plane, going down that hallway to immigration area, and those cameras are looking at everyone's face and determining who you are before you even get to the passport control. They already know who you are and if you're wanted or you have a hold on you or you have a bench warrant out there someplace in this country, they're going to know it before you even get online, because the camera already picked up your face, ran it through AI and knows exactly who you are and they're ready for you and that's how it's used. Live let's talk about later on. There was a protest in Washington, in DC, okay, in January, and the videos from that protest were then fed into the computer and everyone's picture was fed into the computer and their identity was determined based on artificial intelligence. The cameras were able to pick up it's the distance between your nose and your eyes and your ears and your lips and your nostrils, and everything is measured and based on these pictures and how they examine it, the computer could figure out who you are and then, once they know who you are, they know where you live and they can go ahead and arrest you if you were doing something illegal. So cameras are everywhere. By the way, defense attorneys can use this to help clients as well. That's what's so interesting, because cameras are everywhere.

Speaker 3:

I had a case on a college campus where a girl, a student, was accusing my client of rape and my client says everything was consensual.

Speaker 3:

The way she's telling of the story did not happen. Well, I was able to get a lot of surveillance video of these two of them going behind trees, of them kissing, of them holding hands, a lot of consensual stuff that was going on in public, all right, even at one picture where they walked into a closet and never knew that the door was a closet, okay, and then walked out smiling. My client told me what happened behind that closet and I was able to use all those videos to show the jury that she's saying that it was non-consensual one night, but look at the other 15 times where it was consensual. Now, jury, you make a decision, you know, based on her credibility, and it was a very powerful tool to use, but the way I got all those pictures is I downloaded hundreds of hours onto a computer and I told the computer here are the two faces I want to see, and the computer found all of the images where they appeared in the videos.

Speaker 2:

It was great, incredibly time-saving, yeah, exactly, whoa.

Speaker 3:

Instead of watching hundreds of hours of a tree, it was able to find it right away.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because I mean there are cameras everywhere and even through the subways and on the streets, and many, many cities are getting more and more, more cameras. And the Ring doorbell cameras those actually go to a main Ring server. I'm sure the government's able to pull that down, whether you want them to or not.

Speaker 3:

Ring probably has more subpoenas than any other business in this country. Wow Because every time a crime happens on the street and they go around to the Ring cameras. Do you have it? Do you have it? They check your cameras and if not, we're going to go to Ring and try to get it from Ring. But yes, that stuff is downloaded, it's saved. Ring does have it and they do get a lot of subpoenas looking for this stuff.

Speaker 2:

Very interesting. I love the fact that all of these cameras are great in solving crimes, but they also can help resolve that it isn't a crime client did not do this bank robbery.

Speaker 3:

So I reviewed the tapes over and over again and there was something in the tapes that always bothered me and the fact that was when this person who did commit the bank robbery was walking out of the bank, two Brinks guards were walking into the bank. It was just, it was a flash on the screen. But I said you know what, let me go interview those Brinks guards. And I was able to, through my private investigator, find who they were, interviewed them, I showed them a picture of them when this happened, and I showed them a picture of my client and they said no, no, no, this is not the person who walked past us. Bingo, nice Case solved.

Speaker 2:

Just digging into it. Well then, that gets me to the question what do you look for in a defense attorney If, say, it doesn't matter if I'm innocent or guilty, but what do I look for? I need someone to help me, protect me.

Speaker 3:

My tagline is you know, knowledge plus experience equals success. You need somebody who's knowledgeable on the law, you need somebody who has experience in the law, and then you'll be successful. But there's one more thing that everyone needs, and that's you need to get along with your criminal defense attorney. You need to be able to say this is the type of guy that could come over Sunday night for dinner to my house, meet my wife, meet my kids, meet my friends. Whatever it is, I like this person, because if I like this person, I'll be able to be open and honest with the person.

Speaker 3:

And it's so important to be open and honest with your criminal defense attorney. It's so important to tell it like it is. We don't judge, we just want to help, and that's all I want to do. Judge, we just want to help and that's all I want to do. I just want to help you. But I could only help you if you're 100% honest with me. Tell me the truth, tell me what's going on, and I will find a way to defend you. Promise you that. But you need to not be scared to tell me things and you need to actually get along with me, because I want you to be able to call me afterwards and say hey, saul, thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Let's go out for dinner and celebrate my release. Oh great, that's excellent, I mean. And the thing is that, looking at that and wanting to be able to be honest with your attorney, now let's flip the table. How does it feel to defend somebody that the public hates?

Speaker 3:

It happens and that's why I work even harder if the public hates the person, because I am upholding the Constitution of the United States of America and everyone is entitled to the best defense they could get. Everyone is entitled to it. So, yes, sometimes I'm defending somebody who is hated by the public, who committed a heinous crime or is accused of committing a heinous crime, and I still have to face the public and say listen, this person is entitled to defense and I will use everything in my arsenal to defend this person, no matter what the accusation is and no matter what the public thinks about him. As a matter of fact, I will work even harder if the public hates my client.

Speaker 2:

Because we all have the Declaration of Independence and absolutely the Constitution. That's fantastic. This has been a great conversation. I really really appreciate your time, saul. If there was one thing that you want the listeners to take from this conversation. What would be that one thing that you'd like them to take away the listeners to take from this conversation?

Speaker 3:

What would be that one thing that you'd like them to take away? The one thing I want you to take away is that know your rights and know that a criminal defense attorney is just a phone call away. Just a phone call away. You don't have to speak with the police. You could first call an attorney, find out what your rights are and then make a decision whether you're going to speak to the police or not. I never suggest people speak to the police on their own. If you want to speak to the police or law enforcement or federal agents, do it with an attorney present. Attorneys have been around this block more than once. Some of them, like myself, have been former prosecutors. They know what the police are looking for, they know what federal agents are looking for and they can answer the questions in such a way that it will protect you. You need protection from the moment you have police contact.

Speaker 2:

Now, as an answer to the question. I'd like an attorney. Any question I don't want to answer.

Speaker 3:

But a better answer is I have an attorney. Here's his name and phone number. Can you call him for me?

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that. Saul, this has been a pleasure. I know that my listeners are going to want to connect with you and maybe chat with you. Where's the best place for that to happen?

Speaker 3:

So the best way is to go to my website. It's BienenfeldLawcom and you can connect with me. You can send me an email, you can make a phone call to my office and they'll put you through to me. I'd love to hear from your listeners and feel free to call anytime.

Speaker 2:

I'll make sure that your website and your email are in the show notes, and that's excellent. Thank you so much for a great conversation, saul. I appreciate that today.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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