Leadership In Law Podcast

S02E99 Practical Steps to Burnout Recovery with Charlène Gisele

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 2 • Episode 99

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Charlène Gisele takes us on a profound journey from high-powered litigation at Jones Day to becoming a pioneering burnout prevention specialist after witnessing her father suffer a heart attack driven by work stress. This transformative experience completely reshaped her definition of leadership from "achieving the most success" to "surviving your success" – a perspective shift that resonates deeply with legal professionals caught in the hamster wheel of constant achievement.

We explore how attorneys often treat work as an addictive "substance", chasing status and adrenaline at the expense of health and relationships. Charlène explains why burnout is especially dangerous in law, where high achievers often miss the warning signs until it's too late.

Charlène applies elite athlete training to law, introducing "periodization", cycles of performance and recovery, to help achieve peak performance without burnout, challenging the profession's nonstop work culture.

Charlène shares practical ways to break cycles by engaging in activities outside the analytical mind, like cooking, gardening, cars, or sports, that reduce anxiety and build lasting wellness.

Reach Charlène here:
https://charlenegisele.com
https://instagram.com/charlenegisele
https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlène-gisèle-bourliout/
https://charlenegisele.com/podcast
https://www.youtube.com/@CharleneGisele
https://charlenegisele.com/burnout-quiz

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you, from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom. Just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Charlene Giselle, to the show today. Charlene is a former litigator at Jones Day and innovation manager at White Case, now a high-performance coach, clinical hypnotherapist, award-winning keynote and TEDx speaker and burnout advisor to leading law firms. Her signature burnout prevention game plan, inspired by elite athletes' performance, has been featured in major publications, including the Financial Times, Lawyer Monthly and BBC Radio. It has successfully empowered high-achieving professionals worldwide to optimize their well-being and sustain peak performance. I'm excited to have you here, Charlene, Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here with you today.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic, so I love the bio. Tell us a bit about your leadership journey, oops.

Speaker 3:

How much time do we have Four? So when I think leadership, I think leader. Right, and that's an obvious one to say, but to me the best. Oh, and the reason it's relevant to the story is because I grew up in a household where my dad has such a strong presence. He was extremely successful, extremely dedicated, you could definitely say a bit of a type, a obsessed workaholic, and when folks say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, it couldn't be further, it couldn't be closer to the truth.

Speaker 3:

When it comes to me and my dad and I remember when little girls will just want to play or dream about becoming princesses or riding unicorns. My dream was to be a lawyer. That's all I've ever wanted to do. My favorite playground was my father's office. I thought he was a hero and I wanted to be just like him when I grew up. So that was kind of the backdrop of me growing up and I was very ambitious, very ten.

Speaker 3:

I grew up in a small town, actually, but my dream was to go travel abroad and before you knew it, I got into Cambridge University, which was my dream university, and it was very challenging and I have to say a big motivator was making my father proud, just stepping into his shoes and having that big, ambitious career. And then I loved it. I loved everything about it, and so much so that I think it became obsessive and I too became a workaholic. So I would have continued exactly that way. I was building all the time. I love the intensity. I even like the things that you're not supposed to do, the all-nighters, the sort of 90-hour week plus. I like that because it gave me status. It gave me a sense of importance. I even liked working with tight deadlines.

Speaker 3:

So I was a bit of an adrenaline junkie in that sense for work and frankly, I think I would have carried on doing that for the rest of my life if it wasn't for the fact that my mother called in the office and told me that my father had a burnout driven heart attack. It just completely shifted my understanding of the world, especially because when that happened I made the decision to continue to work rather than to travel back home, because I thought that's what my dad would want me to do. And by the time I flew back home on the Friday after my mom called back to say he wasn't going to make the night, he actually had a stroke. When I walk into the intensive care unit and that truly changed my definition of leadership, because before that day, leadership to me was measured in terms of achieved success, all the ones who achieve more success. That was my very narrow definition. From that day onward, my definition of success and leadership was the greatest. Leaders are the ones that are able to survive their success.

Speaker 2:

Ah, okay, and that's a different, really different perspective.

Speaker 3:

Different perspective Because in that moment, lying on the hospital bed with a stroke, was my dad successful? Yes, was he going to survive Most likely not.

Speaker 3:

So in that moment I thought what's all this success, success, what's all that he's done and all this intellectual achievement if it's gonna cost him his life? And he was the classic textbook burnout driven cardiovascular incident? He's not a smoker, not a heavy drinker, a very fit man, very healthy, but it's a bit bad for the fact that he stressed his whole life about work and his heart attack was literally on his way to work. I think that says a lot.

Speaker 2:

It does Wow. And so you modeled yourself around the success you saw. But did he enjoy his family life as well, or did he really drive for work?

Speaker 3:

That's such a good question and I would say a bit of both. So my dad is not only a family man, he's also a man of faith. So he was always a very strong figure and we always felt very looked after. I have we're four, so it's a big family. So he was never, I would say, an absent dad, but we missed him because he was working so much so he was more of the provider archetype than always around kind of dad.

Speaker 2:

So we definitely it sounds like he was. Yeah, he sounds like he was driven at work but present at home, so he kind of straddled that barrier. That's right. He was just, it was just too driven to be able to sustain. That's right, that's right and he survived.

Speaker 3:

And too driven to be able to sustain. That's right. That's right and he survived. And now that we can have this conversation, he says that there are so many things he would do differently, that during our childhood there are so many missed summers or missed weekends where he was caught up by work or having to be in the office, and he remembers just leaving my mom and us because he was working and no one blamed him. In fact, we grew up in a culture where my mom always educated us around the understanding that dad was a hero, right, so there was never bitterness or resentment, but we missed him and we thought it was awesome. And as I got married, in my first marriage I was an absent wife and that marriage didn't last because, as a woman especially, it's very tough for a husband to be mostly left alone when your wife is working until 3 am every night.

Speaker 2:

Oh, true, I think that's hard on any partner, but yeah, now, I see what you're saying. It doesn't have to be a genderm if we're not. Oh true, I think that's hard on any partner, but yeah, no, I see what you're saying it doesn't have to be a gender specific conversation.

Speaker 3:

It can be a universal conversation. But my prior highlight ex-husband did not understand my ways of working and thought I was completely mad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think when they get married, they expect you to be there for them and they would be the breadwinner.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's right and frankly, my primary relationship was not him, it was work. My work always came before him, always.

Speaker 2:

And what led. Okay, so your father having the stroke was a big transition. Where did you make your transition? Did things just change, turn a page right there, or did you work into it? That's such a good question.

Speaker 3:

It took me a little bit of a brutal change and I just want to caveat what I'm about to say. This is what I said and this is what I did, but that's not what I recommend anyone does. So I just want to make that clear. This is my story, but perhaps I would love for it to be thought of as a cautionary tale rather than a playbook. What I did was, I believe now with hindsight, too radical, but also a reflection of how burnt out and exhausted I was. I did something very brutal. I got a divorce, I quit my career and I packed everything up, left my flat, left London and I went to live in India and in Indonesia to become a meditation teacher. So I went from high stilettos city litigator at one of the largest American law firm in the world, being a wife, being a stepmother, to being in a ashram in India with no shoes on meditating right. So when I say, take it a story, this is not what I recommend. It was very extreme but frankly it worked well for me because I treated it like my version of AA.

Speaker 3:

I am a recovered workaholic. At that point in my life I was struggling with very acute work addiction. So I treated my work addiction as such and removed myself from the substance of choice. The substance of choice for me was power, emails, work, billing hours, so that was my thing. People are addicted to alcohol, to drugs. That's the hit, that's the thing. Mine was work, so I needed to remove that, like someone would remove bottles of wine from their household to keep themselves safe or delete the drug dealer's number. I had to make a very radical separation and I can see that it worked and it was positive, but I do believe it's quite dramatic.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the therapists say don't make a grand decision after a big event. You made life-changing decisions, one after the other.

Speaker 3:

Exactly. I would not recommend anyone having burnout, divorce, father's heart attack, going from being a stepmom to being single and alone all at once. But that's what I did and it turned out well. But, needless to say, it was quite a transition, and one of the things that I'm most passionate about in my line of work is transition coaching, so transitioning into different seasons of life, and my advice is, when I work with folks in the legal profession is never quit your job and go to a national.

Speaker 3:

I don't believe that there is ever a need to model what happened, but the reason it's important to understand that I did do that is because it it does shed a light on a topic which is often misunderstood, which is how work can be addictive, and especially legal work, and so many attorneys that I work with day in and day out underestimate how much of an addiction work can become and it numbs and it soothes and you escape and you actually can lose a marriage, you can lose children, you can lose your health, your mental health, your emotional health, your psychological health. So the negative consequences of work addiction are really real and it's not talked about enough as an addiction, and that's really my line of work and that's what led me to the path of clinical hypnotherapy, because I was treated by a clinical hypnotherapist for my work addiction and found it so revolutionary, a as a concept and B as a tool, that I wanted to equip myself with that tool to work with attorneys and specifically, you're clinically licensed and trained.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I am In the UK.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I am. That makes a bit of a difference. There's lots of different life coaches and business coaches, but having that clinician status it makes a big difference, I think with your qualifications.

Speaker 3:

It was something that I wanted to really hold close to my heart because at the time when I navigated my burnout, before I met the clinical hypnotherapist that I did meet, I met a whole bunch of doctors and practitioners that people do the best they can with the tools they've got.

Speaker 3:

So I'm not going to put any label or attach any judgment, but I would say that when I was told for, oh, you're having a nervous breakdown or you have general anxiety disorder, you have this and that, like none of this was helpful because none of this helped me unroot the cause of why I was having chronic anxiety, general anxiety disorder, clinical insomnia all of those things that I was diagnosed with were symptoms and consequences of my work addiction.

Speaker 3:

But when I went to see a doctor and I have a huge amount of respect for that doctor but they offered me a bunch of pills, they wanted to put me on antidepressants and that's not really aligned with my value system because I thought, oof, are we just bypassing the root cause here? It just you feel right and it can be right for many. So I'm not saying this is not. If your doctor prescribes you and you trust your clinician, go with your clinician and your doctor and that can be excellent advice, but for me and for many type A attorneys that are work addict, you do need to do the psychological deep dive and unroot the actual cause of the initial work addiction okay and you feel like yours came from watching your father and wanting to be like dad.

Speaker 3:

100 100 and the need to tie your self-esteem to power, status, money and to really thrive on that, so much so that you forget or neglect other aspects of your life. And there is nothing inherently bad about power and money and being a provider, et cetera. It only becomes either dangerous or damaging when it comes at the price of your son's wellbeing or your daughter's wellbeing or your wife's wellbeing. Most of my clients go to. Sentences is when I get home I'm not present. I hear what my wife is saying, but I don't know what she's saying, or I have no more to give. I'm not fully present because I'm focusing on my emails, on my boss, on my billing, on my year end, and everything else is just becoming a show and I feel distracted and frazzled. So does it mean they don't love their family? Of course not. There's so tunnel vision into the next promotion, into the next bonus, into the next retainer that, frankly, it's taking up all the space in their brain.

Speaker 2:

And that's their identity. Then another thing they do is their family, but their identity is the job. That's right, and so you designed this program. So tell us a bit about your program and how it came down to like. From high performance athletes is how you developed the program. I'm interested to hear that.

Speaker 3:

Yes, such a good question. It's accidental, and I say this very candidly because my intention, frankly, when I opened up my practice was not initially to work with assets. My intention was to work with attorneys, because that's the world that I knew and already close to home, and I was a former attorney. So I thought much made in heaven. But what happened is burnout advisory practitioner was not really a thing, at least when I started. So first of all, let's just put things in context.

Speaker 3:

Burnout has been talked about and recognized since 1971, right. So the psychologists who refer to burnout as a condition relating to work-related stress dates all the way back from the 1970s. However, the World Health Organization did not recognize burnout as a syndrome up until much, much later, right. So it's very recent that burnout is actually recognized as a thing that happens at work. It's still not a medical condition per se. So this is also important for folks to understand. You cannot technically say that you've been diagnosed with burnout. That would be a misstatement. So you can go to the doctor and have a burnout leave, or you can be found to be going through burnout, or you can have. I do burnout assessment, but it's not a clinical diagnosis because that's not been recognized as a medical condition. It's a syndrome, so that's important to understand.

Speaker 3:

It being a syndrome still means that it's recognized and it has components to it. So the components is the fact that physically you're exhausted. So the physiological component. Then there is the psychological component, which is the fact that you're more and more negative. You feel cynical. So lawyers are already very cynical to start with, so you can only imagine. And then the third component is there is an impact on performance. So those are the three components. And when you've got all of that, you've got burnout. And now if you're talking to somebody who is a leader at a law firm, it's much more empowering to know that you're a burnout professional rather than somebody who is helping you go through a nervous breakdown. Right, there is something more tangible. More tangible but also more reassuring, because burnout by definition is not permanent, so it's not permanent.

Speaker 3:

Now going back to your question about athletes athletes also burn out. Why? From overtraining. So this is really important because burnout is not just mental exhaustion, it can be physical exhaustion and athletes also have a huge mental load. So we tend to think, oh, athletes have the physical training, which is true, but in sports psychology there is also the mental game and the competition can be grueling and the periodization and the waiting to know whether you're going to be made into the team, etc. So those thresholds for athletes pro athletes are enormous. So it is really quite common to see very well-known athletes burnout, and so when I became known as one of the pioneering burnout advisor, athletes came to me and sports team came to me to work with the athletes who were facing burnout. So that's how it came about. That's why I say accidental.

Speaker 2:

So you're the go-to person for that. So clearly you had a plan and a process that transitions across profession.

Speaker 3:

Yes, absolutely Absolutely, and it makes for a very rich practice in the sense that I bring a lot of the knowledge that I learned from my athletes to my attorneys and vice versa. And attorneys can learn so much from athletes and athletes can learn so much from attorneys. Little pieces of gold to both worlds, and I always work with the nuances that perhaps the other world doesn't know but could benefit from knowing from that other world. So when I came to the world of sports, for example, I was unfamiliar at first with the concept of periodization. Periodization is a very well-known concept in sports psychology, whereby athletes have periods of rest and recovery very targeted to their peak performance. So we need to work out when their peak performance, when they need to reach the peak. That's really what it is, and so we work or we reverse engineer against that to have a periodization plan. So the training, the recovery, the strategic recovery, the sleep, the nutrition, the cumulative overload of the training, etc. For injury prevention, but also to reach peak.

Speaker 3:

Okay, we don't really do that as lawyers. Like how often I don't know about you, but how often do you learn in a law firm? When are you going to reach your peak? Like you're just thinking about how when you're going to make partner right or when are you going to reach your peak, like you're just thinking about when are you going to make partner right or when are you going to get honest but we don't really have a non-periodization system. So when I applied that concept of periodization and active recovery to the world of law, that was really interesting, because we often don't really approach the fact that to reach our peak aka make partner, make equity partner, whatever the milestone is you also need periods of, dare I say, recovery, which is not something we do very well in law.

Speaker 2:

That doesn't bode well for the keep going charge forward. Very interesting. So do you, as part of your program, who are building a nervous system resilient? Do you teach like hobbies, or what do you encourage to? Because you have that energy if you're addicted to work, there's that energy that needs to move forward. Yeah, how do you harness that? What do you help? What steps will we take?

Speaker 3:

yes, there's such a good question. I'm a huge ambassador of creative outlets and, I think, especially for attorneys, because we're so in our heads. I really like this saying that what we create as a problem from the mind cannot really be undone by the mind. So from a psychological standpoint, anxiety is a creation of the mind, right? Stress is actually very physiological. Stress is a net consequences of the stressors that you experience, and then stress is the physiological response to the external stressors, or internal. Then anxiety kicks in as a side effect or as a consequence to having the stress in your body. Anxiety is often in your head. It doesn't mean it's not real. I'm not belittling anxiety.

Speaker 2:

We all know it's in our head, but you still. When you get to that point, it's not something you can. It's very difficult to talk yourself out of it.

Speaker 3:

Correct. So I always love to say to my clients, like if your husband or your wife tells you just calm down when you're feeling super stressed, that's not going to help.

Speaker 2:

No, not at all.

Speaker 3:

So you will never catch me say that to a client, because I know that's going to stress them out even more. So, side story apart, the reason this is important to highlight is if you can't undo with the mind something that was created by the mind aka you can't undo anxiety by thinking about alleviating anxiety you need to have another outlet, and that outlet outlet is the body, and the body, from a somatic standpoint, is something that from a kinesthetic, from a tactile standpoint, can really create a buffer with anxiety. So when I talk about creative outlets, I specifically love hands-on activities and they don't have to be creative in the sense of becoming Pablo Picasso. You don't have to be artistic. That's important to highlight, right, because most of my attorneys say, oh, but I'm not creative. But you are right. So journaling is creative, taking your pen and paper and writing down is a creative outlet. Going to your garden and picking up some fruits or vegetables or doing anything to do with gardening is creative. Going for a jog, going far run, can be a creative outlet because instead of hands-on activity, it can be feet contact to the ground, which is really grounding. So anything really with the body, where you drop into your body and you do something with your hands. I love if you do play an instrument Fantastic, I'm terrible at it. My thing is listening to music or doing something where it's not your intellectual mind that is solicited is a great way to actually pattern, interrupt, anxiety, right.

Speaker 3:

So I've had example of attorneys that love to cook but never have time to cook, and I appreciate that. Cooking is not for everybody. For some it will be a chore, for others it will be a great source of pleasure. But if you're in the category where it's a great source of pleasure, you can go to your kitchen and take that water and that wheat or whatever it is and make the dough, or it's so soothing, so healing, or for somebody's could be making pottery or doing anything. But getting out of your head and into your body is so powerful. So in my program I always make sure that there is some targeted, specific creative outlets aligned with what the person likes.

Speaker 3:

So another quick example I worked with an attorney who hated to cook, didn't like to garden, didn't like to work out surprise didn't like music, especially never played an instrument, didn't want to journal because that reminded him of work. Didn't want to read because that reminded him of work. Didn't want to read because that reminded him of work. So let's say, like a tough case, right? Okay, let's see right to left.

Speaker 3:

I adored him, adored him, all right. I love a challenge. I'm always going to be a litigator, but let me tell you what he loved above all. He loved classic cars, love classic cars. And I thought at first you may think this is so far-fetched, how is that relating to coaching or hypnotherapy? To him it was everything. So I said you love classic cars.

Speaker 3:

When is the last time you played with the cars or hanged out with the cars? Whatever you car people do with the cars, I don't know. And he said, oh no, don't, they're in my garage, they're covered, he has them, I've got them and don't nothing with. Okay, so you see, like classic archetype. And I said, okay, so we're going to hang up the phone now and you're going to go down your garage, you're going to remove whatever protection you have on the car and you're going to do whatever car lovers do I don't know that part Polish, what's in it Exactly Spend some time with the cars.

Speaker 3:

And he did that and he just loved it and he hadn't even thought about doing that for years, and I know this sounds like such a plain and simple exercise, but perhaps that gives folks an understanding of the fact that we just need to rekindle what it is you already love. My goal is not to invent or create something that you resent or dislike. It's actually quite the opposite. It's understanding what is it that you used to love, that you used to love that you sacrificed and neglected for years, and you're not even conscious of it.

Speaker 2:

Now that brings me back to a conversation I had a couple of weeks ago of talking about how to grow your network or whatever. And some people play golf and some people go to brunches and the bottom line was make it organic, whatever you enjoy. He collected these cars for a reason and then just stored them. They were possessions as opposed to the enjoyment. I love that. It's whatever you get to the root of what you enjoy. It's like the big thing in the States now is pickleball, so it gets the outside. It's a social thing, it's a sport, so you're getting extra time and everything. But I think the bottom line is find something that you enjoy that's not sitting at your desk.

Speaker 3:

That's right, that's exactly right. That's right. And bonus point if that thing, whatever that thing is, involves the body in some type of form, that bonus point, be it pickleball, be it golfing just, you want to be out of your head a little bit and away from your desk, preferably.

Speaker 2:

I love that. So when we think about, okay, now we're seeing a transition away from the desk and away from to get your body involved, so your mind's off of work, so now you're thinking something else. How does that position need to scale sustainably? Is that something I need to be doing once a week? I need to be doing every weekend? What is I mean? Because, okay, I'm going for a 90-hour work week, but I'm trying to back off of that. What is the right perspective or ratio?

Speaker 3:

I love that question and the answer is whenever you're not really at your best, so you feel grumpy, snappy, angry and everything in between just means you haven't done whatever it is you need to do to get an outlet. So the way I like to think of it is it's not so much how much you need to do it or the frequency, depends on how you feel when you don't right. So for me to dial in the right amount, it's not necessarily once a week, or three times a week, or once a month. It actually I need to have an understanding and an audit of how long does it take for you to feel that you're in need of that thing which makes you happy right.

Speaker 2:

So you need to be conscious of yourself and how you're feeling, as opposed to just driving straight through.

Speaker 3:

Work A hundred percent, and hence the beauty of having a partner and that really to me is the essence of coaching or hypnotherapy is to have that handheld of a space where somebody can do the auditing and do the analysis. So you don't have to, because you may think that it's your thing to be moody on a Monday. So a lot of the partners that I work with say it's just the way I am, sunday's crap, and then Monday I'm in a rut, and then you made it an identity piece and that's how you operate and somehow that's how your wife tolerates.

Speaker 2:

You know everybody in the office knows that you're grumpy on Monday.

Speaker 3:

That's right. So then the question I ask my client is Right. So then the question I ask my client is John, I understand this is how things are, but is that how you want things to be? And when is the last time, John, you were not grumpy on a Monday in the office? Was there ever in your life, at any point, John, a good Monday? That's what I want to know, and usually they're released.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you have to remember when was that and when did it change? That's right, that's right.

Speaker 3:

What happened that created that chain of event where your subconscious mind that created that chain of event where all the things that you do leading up to that Monday, that's what I want to know it's big down to the root of the problem yeah, this is the kind of auditing that I do, and so it's a beautiful process because you have a very safe container where you come with your highs and your lows, your moods, and you have somebody neutral unpicking your behavior and connecting the dots. So that's a lot of what I do is just looking at patterns of behavior and connecting the dots. Maybe Julie worked really hard on Wednesday because that's the day where she doesn't have childcare, or that's the day where her team members are short or whatever reason, and then it so happens that Julie, on a Wednesday, tend to drink a whole bottle to herself, right? Okay, now we get it right. So Julie has associated relaxation to wine. So the tougher her day, the bigger the glass of Chardonnay, right?

Speaker 3:

Yes, we need to again look at behavior patterns and understand what are the triggers. So when was the very first time Julie decided that the best way to numb and soothe her work-driven anxiety was wine? When did she learn that behavior for the very first time? Learn that behavior for the very first time, julia? I want to know can you remember the very first time you reached for the wine on your own, to numb, soothe and escape.

Speaker 2:

Okay, are you taking? I know we said that some people don't journal, but in order to find out where the problems are in different therapies you keep like a food journal for allergies and that sort of thing Are you having them keep track of what's triggered that? When did that start, what is my identity and how does that work? 100%?

Speaker 3:

Particularly when we work on either food as a mechanism to soothe anxiety, or alcohol or drug or sleep deprivation. So it's not that every person would be a right fit for a food journal or an alcohol journal or a sleep journal, but depending on what is the thing that the client wants to work on, then a journal or a log, or at least an audit, will be highly relevant.

Speaker 2:

Wow, this is incredible. I can see how this is incredibly helpful because everybody wants to grow their business unless they're going for a lifestyle, and a lifestyle is not burnout. So I think everybody can help have be helpful having a an an assessment of where they are if they want to grow in their business. So this has been extremely helpful. If my listeners want to connect with you and maybe chat further with you about your program or how you can help them, where would they reach out to you?

Speaker 3:

Oh, thanks for asking. So there are two resources I would love to offer. The first one is a complementary burnout assessment. So again, just reiterating, this is not a medical diagnosis, it's an assessment, but it will allow you to understand where you live on the spectrum. So you can go ahead and go on my website at wwwcharlengisellecom and it's the first thing you will see on the page is take the burnout quiz, so that will give you a gauge of where you are and it will be just an empowering tool and that's complimentary. That will be the first action and then, depending on the result, you're very welcome to follow the steps that you will receive in the assessment. And then the second complementary resource that I would love to give your listener is, if you feel that you want to understand more about the ripple effects of burnout and how it can affect your family, your life, et cetera, then you can hop onto my podcast as well. The Challenge Is Our Show where I talk about a different aspect of our life that gets affected by burnout every week.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic, Then what we'll do is we'll make sure that all those links are in your show notes and people can reach out to you. This has been so interesting. I really appreciate your time and so many nuggets of how to get your burnout under control and reach out for help. So anybody needs help, definitely check the show notes for the links to reach out to Giselle Geline. Sorry, and we'll certainly thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. You're a terrific host and I've enjoyed this recording thoroughly, so thank you.

Speaker 4:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast. Remember you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

Host