Leadership In Law Podcast

S03E122 Storytelling In Law with Brent Turman

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 3 • Episode 122

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What happens when a filmmaker becomes a trial lawyer? We sit down with Brent Turman to unpack how a background in film school and ESPN production translates into courtroom wins, by turning complex disputes into stories jurors can actually follow, feel, and remember.

Brent walks us through the three‑act structure he uses to frame openings and closings so timelines don’t collapse into a blur. He shares how to build demonstratives that make technical issues tangible, when to bring physical objects into the courtroom, and why a single, deliberate pause can say more than five loud objections. We dig into impeachment moments that land, purposeful movement that adds tension without theatrics, and practical ways to keep modern jurors engaged when attention spans are stretched thin by short‑form media.

Beyond tactics, we go deep on culture. Brent explains how brainstorming across roles, partners, associates, and paralegals, surfaces angles others miss, and why mentorship time pays off when the pressure is highest. He talks candidly about calibrating asks through scrappy mock sessions, protecting team “vibes” to build resilience, and reading the room from the garage to the gallery because professionalism starts before voir dire. The core lesson echoes throughout: authenticity beats performance. Jurors trust what feels true, and advocates who know the record cold can speak like humans, not scripts.

Reach Brent here:

https://bellnunnally.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brent-turman-013b784/



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SPEAKER_00:

Your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever changing world of law firm ownership. From unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team, we connect to with successful firm leaders and industry experts, who start approving strategies and hard block with the whether you're a statement leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner. The Leadership in Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

SPEAKER_02:

He is no stranger to resolving contentious disputes and helping his clients protect their assets. Brent advocates for clients ranging from high-net worth individuals and estates to Fortune 50 companies in a wide variety of business and intellectual property disputes. He has represented clients in complex arbitration and litigation related to internal and external business disputes, real estate transactions, and claims of patent copyright and trademark infringement. I'm excited to have you here, Brent. Welcome.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you, Rail. I'm excited to be here too. Thank you for asking me. Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. So can you tell us a bit about your leadership journey?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I have had an unconventional journey as far as it comes with traditional lawyers, right? So I went to film school. I was one of those nerdy kids using their parents' camcorders, making movies, right? Growing up, broadcast journalism, all that. And I love that the power you had. I'm not powerful, but you have as the director, as a cinematographer, as the editor. And I went straight, it was an amazing journey because I went to Southern Methodist University up here in Dallas, and we were atrocious at football. In fact, there's one year and I was an undergrad, we lost every single game. Oh no. And so it was painful. It was painful. But you imagine how excited I was when my first out-of-school job was working for ESPN college football. Oh my god. It was insane traveling all around, seeing the greatest of the great, Tebow, Colt McCoy. I saw Kaepernick win a quadruple overtime game that was the highest scoring game ever. And so for there, in the offseason, I produced as well for commercials, music videos, point of purchase content, things like that. But there, our audience was the viewing public. And you have a diversity of people, even watching a football game. You have some people who just want the action in the replace and that the big hits and the touchdowns, right? And the highlights. You have other people who are interested in the stats. You have other people who want to know the person that they're watching on screen. They want to know the backstory, their family, their hardships in that. And so we wove that all together to tell compelling stories to the national audience and sometimes international. And now, a little bit different, but the same thing. We tell compelling stories to judges, juries, and arbitrators. And I'm a trial lawyer here, like I said, in Dallas at the full service firm of Bell Munley.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, that's that is amazing. I love that. And you're right. I never thought about the different aspects of people watching football. But you're right. It's like everybody wants to know, remember John Madden? He always had the background stories in the middle of all of the stuff he was talking about.

SPEAKER_03:

And he'd also go, BAM. Like he you remember John Madden. Those big old turkey legs on Thanksgiving, too.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So with your background with them and television production, how did it shape the way that you tell stories in the courtroom?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there's a couple of different things I do, but with it, again, the film school background, I have seen things different than somebody, nothing against it, who went poly psy straight to law school, right? I have a different experience. And so I want to make sure people experience different things. One of those is different senses, right? Some people you can tell them something and that's good enough. Some people you can hand them a document or they can look at their own, that's enough. Other people want to experience it in different ways. And so it could be if we have visual evidence, I always love that. If you can create demonstrative exhibits, for example, I'm just I'm map, I was mapping one out over here. Oh, don't want to see too much. There's nothing confidential. But I'm mapping one out for a trial we have coming up, different ways to express and convey ideas. And then also had a case several years ago. I was able to publish equipment and pieces of this machine to the jury, and they could touch it, right? They could see it. They thought they were part of the action. And something else we do is storytelling narratives. And it's not everything we do, it's not a one-size-fits-all. It doesn't fit for each and every case we do. But I have been thrilled to do this one thing that my mentor taught me. The first case that I did this with was fighting over the 50 shades of gray royalties in Tarrant County. And you're not far as Tarrant County is Fort Worth, the Greek conservative jurisdiction. Yes. I could speak 30 minutes just on the Vordire, the jury selection process we had there and the questions that came up from the jury. But with it, I was privileged to work under an attorney named Mike Ferris, who has since retired after he won that case. And I love working with him because he had a different approach than some lawyers. He wanted to be clean and straightforward, but he's in addition to being an attorney, he's an author. And so we structure our argument in that case, and I used it again just as recently as last April, another case because it fit the three-act structure. And so the first act is the setup, second act is the complication, and the third act is the payoff. And it's great because it empowers the jury. And one of my favorite moments when we get to do this is looking at your panel and saying, and here's the interesting part, here's the really cool part. You get to decide how this movie ends. And it gives them the sense of being empowered, right? Like they are part of it. They're not just looking at it from the outside. And on top of that, it is amazing. Timelines can be very boring. Let's be real. And this is a way to spice it up because you can set it out to where each slide we have act one, act two, act three. And another fun moment that Mike used and I've borrowed or maybe stolen in some subsequent trials is and if this was a movie, here's where you'd hear the ominous music in the background, right? This is the first time anyone suspects this is the bad guy or the bad woman. And it just makes it more exciting than exhibit A. Look at this date when they said this, right? It's just more interesting for the jury. And keeping it interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because it's got to be super boring as sitting there for day after day.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, for sure. For sure. And we've had, I mean, I've had trials that go on for weeks, and it is important to keep them engaged. And part of what I do that some people don't do is I go out of my way to manufacture interesting moments in the trial. It there's things you have to do, right? You have to get certain evidence. But I want to keep them engaged because if you think about it, I'm not, I don't want to sound like get off my lawn old man right now. But think about the someone who just turned 18. Think about what his or her attention span is going to be like if they doom scroll TikTok every night. We got 15-second clips and that's it. And these people, if they've never been on a jury, their whole exposure may be watching a legal drama that wraps up in 45 minutes plus commercials or no commercials if they don't have to sit through those depending on the streaming app. True. And it's just so different. So you want to keep them engaged. And I have lots of things I've done to just spice up every witness. It's not making it purely entertainment, but making it more engaging.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. I love that. So when you're in front of a jury, how do you decide which parts of the client story to emphasize or which parts to simplify?

SPEAKER_03:

Man, simplify is tough because you can't talk down to a jury, right? You have to give them the respect that they deserve. You want to make sure they feel the respect too, because it's gonna affect your client. Yes, exactly. Um but with it, it's really we do a lot of workshopping to talk to people who do not know anything about the facts. It could be as big as a full-blown mock trial, which you do if the judge, if the not the judge, the budget budget can handle that. But also just workshopping with people who have no familiarity with it that work in the firm. And we see what's easy to digest, what's not, without being involved in this area. Because we definitely want to give them enough information. We want to have some repetition, but not too much. It's this fine balance. And I realize I didn't exactly answer your question, but it's not a one size fits all. It's gonna depend on.

SPEAKER_02:

I think we've all seen the trial TV shows where they're doing the, they're getting ready, they're testing, and they're what the how they're processing in front of, like you said, other members of the firm that aren't involved in that particular area.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, and it's so helpful because, for example, this the Biddy Shades trial we had, and this was over a decade ago, that was in contingency case, and we did not have a big budget. And I got a bunch of people I knew from different stages of my life who have different occupations, and ordered margaritas and bajitas. Oh, right and I had them over at our at my house. I did a 15-minute opening, played clips of videos from the depositions, 15-minute closing. And at the end of it, I learned a valuable lesson. In that case, I believe the defendant is a very bad person who should be punished. I've also seen how it affected other people, had a close emotional bond with the client, and been swimming in the evidence for a year and a half. So, of course, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid by that point. These people know nothing about it. And it was so helpful because they told me, look, like, look, we know that you believe she's bad. That's very clear. Based on the evidence we've seen, I don't think you've proven she's that bad. And so we we really went with that. And that was important because we decided not to push aggressively for punitive damages because we didn't want to seem like we were being overly aggressive or pushing too far. And that panned out perfectly at trial.

SPEAKER_02:

That's awesome. So you literally brought in members of your social circle and that too weren't involved in it. I love that that you see that you were pushing the wrong emotion and adjusted and still one for your client. That's great.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's important to make sure your ego doesn't get in the way there, too. Because something it's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that is true. You got to get your ego out of it. And it's so when you're doing the storytelling, do you, and you were practicing, you had your 15 in, your 15 out. Are you using like pacing and tension and visual framing? Is it really going that far? I worked in community theater as a director and assistant director. So is it something like, are you thinking it that way?

SPEAKER_03:

So with it, the first thing before any of this is you have to be the subject matter of expert, know everything inside and out. Because what I do, I never want a script forever and be clear clear word for word, unless there's something you have to quote, a contract provision, a certain term of art in the law. Yes, you have to get those words exact. But with it, there are things you do. There's well-known things like the rule of threes. I make sure to use that if there's something that I want them to remember. If there's a specific phrase I want them to keep in mind, I might use alliteration. Pregnant pauses can be very powerful, especially during cross-examination. Things like that. So there are tools that you find that work for you that you lean on from time to time that can be extremely effective. And then for any of the listeners here, know the first time you're in the courtroom, you're just talking a mile a minute and you just can't even slow down. So it's always important to me to intentionally speak a little slower than I normally do. Because I want to make sure they understand it. Right. And they're when you speak slower, people listen closer too.

SPEAKER_02:

I agree. I think it's like, isn't it psychology? This is if you whisper, people listen more.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And there's some litigators that has done very well for them.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, how interesting. Very cool. And uh, so with that, working with ESPN in film production, I love that. So what made, I'm assuming it's the being in the community area theater and stuff, what skills of that have proven most valuable? Is it through the storytelling?

SPEAKER_03:

I think it is the storytelling, and I've written scripts before, so I know that you're gonna have inciting incidents. For example, if you're writing a book too, you're gonna have not necessarily a cliffhanger, but something rise up, an interesting moment near the end of every chapter. It's important to do that at trial. Like I said, manufacturing interesting moments. And I don't want to dumb things down to say you have to keep the jury entertained, but there are some things that I found that are very effective. One thing, if you've taken a thorough deposition, which I'm sure your listeners do, you have enough ammunition to where if the person on the other side of the V wants to change his or her story and say something different at trial, you have the ammunition to impeach them. And it's those moments are memorable. I had one case in the Western district in Austin, I think it was either July or August this year, where I impeached the plaintiff six different times. And every time I had my three-ring binder with the deposition transcript. And by the time, every there's one time where I clipped it open loudly, but not showy, but to make a point when he was started lying on the stand, and the jury rolled their eyes, not at me, at him. Oh, okay. So that's one thing you can do. Some other things, it's important, like you said, the pacing and talking, but also purposeful movement. Depending on your judge, he or she may let you move around. And I love approaching the witness, not just for the heck of it, but you want to make sure it's on an important line of questioning. Because you better believe the jury is paying more attention in that moment than they are the rest of the time because you've just made it a little more suspenseful. So yeah, there are things that you do intentionally to make sure what you do is more compelling and memorable.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. I feel like I'm on the pretrial of the Kathy Bates and Matlock. No.

SPEAKER_03:

My my grandma, rest in peace. She was so funny. She goes, she's talking to me about Matlock when I wanted to be a lawyer. And she goes, Matlock at the beginning of the episode, he doesn't seem that smart, but he always figures it out at the end. And I was like, you're right, Gran. Matlock does. I guess Kathy Bates, she does now.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. I love it. Exactly. So how would you, if thinking about other lawyers, when it sounds like you're thinking very creatively when you think about your litigation and bringing cases, what would you suggest for other attorneys to think more creatively without losing that professionalism when they're presenting a complex issue?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, with it. We have brainstorming sessions. We have a couple structured early in the case. We think about big ideas and things that could come to play. We make sure we have them closer too, and I'll have my team, whether it be other partners, associates, and I've even brought in closely paralegals in the past. That's one paralegal who's gone to several trials with me, and her input was just invaluable because she saw things differently. How about you hit this angle with this document? Because he keeps skipping over it, but I was wondering this. And so it gives us that's again just high-level strategy. But I had a meeting that was an hour with multiple attorneys last week, and we just talked about demonstrative exhibits and ways you talked about trying to simplify things. We have some very complex issues. I can't talk about the specific issues on the air right now, but very complex scientific, technical issues. And how can we explain this in simple, accessible ways, whether it be with an object or with something that would be familiar to these people in their everyday lives? Because I guarantee you they haven't dealt with this specific product. And so really it's just a collective. I like to foster an environment where we can all have ideas. It's not just boss man says this is what we're doing and that's it. And am I gonna take every idea? Heck no, of course not. But we are gonna have the ideas, evaluate them, weigh them, debate them, and see what we can do to best protect the client.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. So you're making it part of your company culture.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm trying, at least, you know, all I can do is what I'm touching, but I definitely one thing that's underrated, and maybe this is a generational thing. I'd like to think I'm still part of the younger generation, but I'm not sure I am anymore. But I try to think that way, and it's gonna sound silly, but the vibes are so important. The vibes on your team, the vibes with your client. I can think of uh in in my past, distant past, I'm not talking about anyone I work with right now, to be clear. I can think about some trial teams that were just miserable because of the attitude that people have at the top. And some maybe they just don't handle stress well. I don't know. But regardless, you dread going to work. And I like to foster an appropriate level of fun and lightheartedness. For example, this trial I had last summer, I had my client pass me this note, and this will tell you what the vibes are. We just had a I had a cross-examination that went better than I thought it would, and the client wrote on this piece of paper, they need to rename their firm, the other firm, to Christmas tree because you just lit them up. And so again, I'm not saying that to brag, I'm saying that that is the vibe and the energy we have with our team. I gave a panel on the Johnny Depp trial from a couple years ago. Did you see any of that footage? I did, yeah. So I spoke with someone who was at Court TV and I had her on the panel, and she said it was so interesting because the jury could tell, like the people on Johnny Depp's trial team enjoyed being around each other. They liked their client. You look on the other side of the courtroom and it is cold. Nobody's talking to each other, like they don't need to joke, but they don't even want to interact.

SPEAKER_02:

No, he was like handing out candy and stuff. It was just, it was crazy. Yeah, everybody was so much more relaxed on his side. I do remember that.

SPEAKER_03:

He knew what he was doing, and that's also something I remind my younger associates. You're on stage at all times, starting from when we're half a mile from the parking garage at the courthouse. And I doesn't mean be fake, but you got to think about all of this. There is thought that goes into how you present yourself at all times.

SPEAKER_02:

And dress.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but you're right. And with the jury sitting up there, there's always someone, there's too many sets of eyes to not have one on you at some point.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. And you, when you're having jury selection day, you don't know where these potential jurors are on the courthouse and if they're going to end up on your panel, on the jury. I've had some situations to where I don't see, I'm not trying to be a good Samaritan out there. I'm not just helping everybody. But I had somebody having a hard time getting to the parking garage, and I'd been there a bunch and said, Oh, here's what you do, go around there, clip this, and then they'll help you once you get inside. He ended up on my jury three hours later. And uh so it's just important to remember that's the same morning, my opposing counsel shows up in a hardback, hard top Lexus convertible and a really way too flashy suit. Like you said, it's important. You how you look is important.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I think I would say the same thing as mine is basic manners as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And same thing in common practice. You were just as nice to the court staff as you are to the judge.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. Wow. So you've mentioned doing talked about the importance of building a posit culture with your team. So how did you how do you how do new people fit into your cut culture? How do you start that with a new team member?

SPEAKER_03:

With a new team member? Yeah, it starts with the vibes. A lot of it is also mentorship to where it's non billable time that you pour into people and Do I always pour in a ton of time? No, I got three kids. I'm juggling everything. We're busy. But it's making sure they're okay. It's I found with some associates feel like they're task rabbits on because they got a bunch of cases. I want to make sure that they know what's going on in the case, even if they aren't involved in that piece of it yet. Because I want to make them feel like they are involved and it's their case. On top of that, it's kind of like you said, good manners. Treat someone the way you'd want to be treated. Because again, I'm not someone you want to work with, but if anyone who's been a lawyer can think about someone they've worked under in the past and been like, I really it was really unpleasant working for him or her because of A, B, or C. And so it's just taking the lessons that you see along the way and making sure you don't repeat those. You don't repeat history.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think in the law it's very interesting that that mentorship is expected.

SPEAKER_03:

It is. And that's a challenge right now. Again, we have a pretty in-person culture, but I can see how that'd be so difficult to get mentorship as a young attorney and associate if you're all remote and you're not in the office. Because a lot of times the mentorship comes in on non-billable events or talking in the hallway or seeing things that are going on. But it is expected, and some people do it and some people don't, though. Right? It's not part of the bottom line in how many dollars come in for the firm.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I one of the things I like to ask is do you did you get a mentor? Do you use a business coach when we're talking about different things? And the majority of attorneys have had mentors of older partners, either earlier in their career, that sort of thing, and helping direct them and just get things going for them. Because it's it's experience, and that's what you need.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. And I've had great experience. My past firm, like I said, Mike Ferris, former judge Bob Genovine, we're amazing mentors. We have gone to fought different wars together, and they're like my 30-plus-year-old brothers, right? Or 30-year-old brothers, older brothers. Um, and the same thing here, you even if you aren't assigned a static mentor, I've got people that I rely on very frequently and help guide the way, right? They've seen things that I haven't seen, and we put our heads together and figure things out.

SPEAKER_02:

Love that. And now that you do a lot of high stakes, different cases and stuff. How do you keep that collaboration and trust in your team when they're working under the high pressure of those disputes?

SPEAKER_03:

With it, it's you have to be organized, or else you're gonna be a lot more stressed and you're just trying to stay above water and you can't focus on those other things. But it's building out pockets of time to make sure you have a 30-minute meal with them when you're prepping for something and y'all decompress a little bit. You want to talk. I try to talk to my associates, especially if I had them handle certain hearings. What are you most worried about coming up? Because I want to help you talk through it. And I don't want you to be scared to ask me, right? I don't want you to feel like a dumb because you don't know this. You shouldn't because you haven't done it before. And so it's just trying to carve out that time, but you can't do it if you're behind the eight ball and you are not fully prepared because you have to prepare. That's number one, and make sure you're hitting all deadlines and you're ready to roll. And something else too, it's making sure my first trial back in the day, I thought you have to have everything done. Once you're in the rhythm enough, it's knowing I know all the facts, I had the high-level stuff, I had the outlines and all this. I have to make sure I'm ready for tomorrow. Fully ready for tomorrow. We'll figure out the rest after that. You may have to pivot during the day, but just trying to make sure they understand that too, because your first time at trial can be so stressful. So it's important for them to hear from someone who's been there, done that, how it works.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. So you don't have to have the entire case figured out on day one because it may pivot.

SPEAKER_03:

You need to have the case to an extent figured out and you know all the facts, but you don't need to have the final version of your outline for the cross-examination of this third party because you're gonna talk to him or her later in the week because you know they're flying in Thursday night, just for example, things like very cool.

SPEAKER_02:

This has been really interesting. So let me ask you a question. If if I could wave a magic wand right now and solve any problem in your firm, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That's a hard-hitting question right there. Any problem in our firm, it's not a problem with our firm. It's just give me a list of everybody who's gonna get sued next year so I can make sure I'm trying to mind, right? I love it. That's it because that's something that that never goes away. And you've talked to a bunch of people, but I know I've got, like I said, three kids. My wife has a very demanding job in finance, and everything I do when I'm not billing has to either be 100% for my family or have some angle, even if it's a remote angle, uh business development. Just because there's only 24 hours in the day, and that's it. And you got to sleep enough to not get sick. So that's it. That's it. Maybe that's not unique to our firm, but that's what's on my mind right now.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. I love it. This has been an a great conversation, and I love the way you prepare for trial. And do you have any thoughts or ideas that you want someone to take away from this what you've said today, that they have a good nugget that they could take with them?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, with it. One thing I didn't really talk about, but is so important is be genuine. That is the most important thing you can do as an advocate for your clients, primarily or advocate, because you think about it, tell you a story real quick. So I was fortunate enough to score high enough on the LSAT that I was asked to teach for Kaplan. And it was a great opportunity, great experience. I had never had experience really presenting your teaching before. And so as I'm prepping, I'm at home and I'm like, if you look at question seven, you have to think about this and this. I've got this big authoritative professorial voice. And my wife is like, What are you doing? You have a stick up your butt. Who are you? No one wants to hear from this person. Oh and the same applies to oral advocacy, right? They don't want to see you be the tough smart lawyer or whatever the commercials are, or beaten on the table if it's not appropriate and that's not your personality. Yeah. So I think that's the most important thing is to be true to yourself. And if a younger attorney, watch what other litigators in your firm, other firms at the courthouse, whatever, see what they do. If it's if you like it and you think it fits you, try it on. You'll know quickly if it works or not. But don't just copy somebody because that's the way they do it. Because you need to be true to yourself, and the jury can smell out a fraud. They know if you're not being genuine.

SPEAKER_02:

That is true. Jury who cares, they certainly can.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. I know our listeners are probably going to want to connect with you at some point. What would be the best place for them to connect with you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, always LinkedIn. Again, Brent Terman, T-U-R-M-A-N. Also, I work for the full service firm of Bell Nunnalee in Dallas, Texas. You can find me at bterman at bellnunnally.com. Reach out, love to connect.

SPEAKER_02:

Fantastic. Y'all make sure that those are in the show notes. And again, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you being here. This has been really fun to talk.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you, Merlin. Had a blast and I appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to LawmarketingZone.com to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law Podcast, and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same to test. Head over to our website at LawMarketingSnot.com. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources, and stay up to date on the latest episode. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep working with Victor and keep growing your firm.

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