Leadership In Law Podcast

S03E125 No-Pressure Approach to Legal Recruiting with Chris White

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 3 • Episode 125

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The legal talent market didn’t just “cool off”, it reset. I sit down with Chris White, attorney-turned-recruiter and founder of Navigate Legal Search, to unpack how COVID-era hiring sprints, salary spikes, and a slower 2023–2024 cycle reshaped what firms need and what candidates should showcase. We look at where AI is actually changing workflows, why some firms are trimming junior intakes, and what that means for associates planning the next move.

Chris pulls back the curtain on how attorneys stand out when pedigree won’t carry the day: translate matters into measurable impact, align your experience to the role’s core work, and make your resume read like evidence, not autobiography. On the firm side, we get tactical about fixing broken hiring: define decision makers, compress interview rounds, communicate timelines, and write job posts that sell the role, the culture, and the growth path. The most persuasive pitch isn’t “competitive comp”, it’s a credible story about mentorship, training, client exposure, and values that show up in daily work, not just on the website.

We dive into retention, the true profit lever. Mentorship tops compensation as a mid-level priority, and for good reason: law is an apprenticeship. Hybrid models can either starve learning or supercharge it; the sweet spot is structured flexibility paired with intentional coaching. For long-term engagement, firms should start business development training early, offer rainmaker shadowing, and clarify promotion paths, even when opaque. For attorneys, choosing environments with authentic mentorship, real responsibility, and BD support builds a portable career that thrives through market cycles.

Reach Chris here:
www.linkedin.com/in/christopherbrucewhite
https://www.navigatelegalsearch.com/

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SPEAKER_00:

Your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of Law Firm Ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who start approved strategies and hard work with the whether you're a digital leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner. The Leadership in Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Chris White, to the show today. Chris is a legal recruiter and founder of Navigate Legal Search, where he helps attorneys find fulfilling new opportunities and law firms connect with top legal talent. A former practicing attorney himself, he brings a thoughtful, no pressure approach to career transitions rooted in his firsthand understanding of the challenges lawyers face. Over the years, he's placed attorneys across a wide range of practice areas and markets with a special focus on Chicago. Before launching Navigate Legal Search, he practiced corporate and securities law at Drinkler, Biddle and Reed and Peterson and Halb, and he is a proud graduate of the University of Michigan School of Law and Ross School of Business. I'm excited to have you here, Chris. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much for having me, Marilyn. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Let's start off by telling us a bit about your leadership journey.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's funny. I've gotten to know a lot of recruiters, and the general sentiment is nobody goes and wakes up in fifth grade and says, I want to become a recruiter. Everybody kind of stumbles into it. And that's certainly true with me. Uh I practiced law. I was laid off in the great, I was an MA attorney, corporate worked right up. So I was laid off during the 08 crisis. And I took a part-time job leading food tours just to get out of the house. Loved it. Started my own beer tour company in Chicago. We led 20,000 people on walking educational beer tours in the city. And then COVID, it took shot at bad business. I went and practiced law for a little bit, didn't like it. And then was like, what am I going to do with my life? And I tried to, I bought all these books to try to figure out. And I ended up in recruiting. I felt like it combined my strengths. I really like dealing with people. And then also combined my knowledge of the legal industry. And I've been doing it now for over eight years and absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_03:

Fantastic. And you get a different perspective of it being an attorney first and then placing attorneys.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I think it's really important in the legal profession because if you haven't gone through it, it's hard to understand what the day-to-day is like and empathize with attorneys and law firms and clients when they're looking to attract talent.

SPEAKER_03:

Interesting. So you've been doing this for over eight years. What are you seeing the biggest shifts in the legal recruiting right now?

SPEAKER_01:

There's a lot of shifts. The most recent one really there's been a little slowdown. COVID really changed the market because firms really tried to hire quickly. They realized demand snapped back during COVID. And so it put took pushed a ton of pressure on the market. Salaries at the larger firms really dramatically increased. And then since then, the last couple of years, we've had the reverse effect. The market's really slowed. It's absorbing that kind of crazy hiring during 21 and 22. So that's been a really dramatic impact in the market. Now we're seeing AI, and that's impacts as well. There's been some reports that it's starting to reduce hiring at the junior level, although not widespread in the attorney market.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, because so what we're hearing is AI is becoming like a junior paralegal, but you're seeing it could be moving on up into the attorney ranks.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm keeping a close eye on it because it obviously impacts my business as well. I haven't seen, I think, wide impacts. And I think law firm, most law firm leaders don't think it's anywhere near replacing lawyers yet. But some firms publicly have announced that they're reducing their junior level hiring because of AI.

SPEAKER_03:

Interesting. Wow. So obviously you're seeing from all different directions. From your perspective, what makes an attorney truly stand out in a crowded market?

SPEAKER_01:

From the attorney perspective, and this is one of my issues with legal recruiting, it's really a credential conscious industry. So certainly at top firms, where you went to law school, how well you went and law and you did in law school is really important. Those credentials can be really hard to get around, especially at really large firms. They're very credential conscious. Moving down, it really comes to experience on the lateral market. How applicable is your previous experience to the current role? And that's what I try to tease out when I'm talking to candidates because it's easy to, I think, get pigeonholed and not think that through. Oh, I actually have some of this. I actually have done this before, and I'm not expressing it appropriately on my resume. So making sure that you tease that out and how your experience can really help them out.

SPEAKER_03:

And so you've seen enough from the firms of what they're looking for, you can help an attorney look more attractive.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. That's the goal, right? Or at least be honest with them and say this one will be a tough fit.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Okay. Very interesting. Because we've since what is it, high school, we've had to worry about our res resume and what it looks like. And just being able to highlight the important parts is so important.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. And it's funny, I've had certain law firm clients ask for law uh law school transcripts even after 20 years of practice. Wow. So so those unfortunately that can follow you for a long time.

SPEAKER_03:

After 20, that's amazing. Just amazing. It should be a limit to amount of time that you can do that. But 20 years experience, that's crazy. So we're you're thinking from the attorney standpoint, if they feel stuck and they're hesitant to explore new roles, what signs would you would tell you that it's time for an attorney to consider a move?

SPEAKER_01:

There's a lot of reasons people start to think about exploring the market. Obviously, compensation can play a role. Um, it's often the first question that I'm asked when I'm talking to candidates about particular roles is what is the compensation for an understandable reason. But I would say a lot of times compensation is not really the ultimate driver of why people leave. People leave for a lot of other reasons. Obviously, culture can play a role. If you're clashing with the particular attorneys at the firm, whether they're partners or others, that can a lifestyle, work life, especially at larger firms. You get paid well, but you're on call 24-7 and often have to work nights and weekends. So that can play a big driver. People want to trade a little comp for lifestyle. It could be work. I've worked with attorneys recently who are buried on the depth chart, as I say. They might be working in large teams where they're not getting the hands-on experience they really need to grow. It could be um a change in their own lifestyle. They had kids, something happened, they're taking care of elderly parents where it demands that they have a more work-life balance to manage their own lifestyle and career. So there's a really variety of reasons, and every candidate has different drivers when it comes to what they're looking for.

SPEAKER_03:

And we were thinking about what they're looking for. How do attorneys' career needs differ depending on the size of the firm?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question. And I think it really depends on the firm. Large firms, you tend to be on staffed on large deals. So you're going to be working with a lot of people, and those career expectations are different than and a much, it's much harder to make partner at those firms. It's usually an upper out model, and being able to attract clients at those billing rates with that type of experience can be really challenging. At smaller firms, what is the path to partnership? Is there a path to partnership? And what does that look like? And for partners, you know, is it a two-level system, income partner or equity partner? What does the compensation look like? All of these, there's so many different roles in every situation. And then some attorneys, a lot of attorneys go move to in-house or company roles at companies or to government as well. So there's a lot of different directions you can take your career.

SPEAKER_03:

And do you help place in if it were to be a government or in-house type stuff? Do you help with those as well?

SPEAKER_01:

Government roles really don't utilize recruiters, which makes sense. They don't want to necessarily pay those fees and they don't necessarily need to. And then in-house roles, it depends. Sometimes I work on in-house roles. Most of my practice is focused on law firms, but in-house occasionally will utilize recruiters.

SPEAKER_03:

Excellent. Now, when a firm comes to you looking for talent, what are the most common gaps that you're seeing in their hiring process?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question. There's a lot of things that I will tell firms they can even do on their own. I think the first is expectations. Where are you in the market? If you're comp is your comp on the high end of the market, is it average or is it lower? That's going to really dictate what talent pool you can draw from and also dictate your story because again, there's a lot of other reasons people move. So maybe you have lower comp, better lifestyle. Then make sure you tell that as part of your story. Some firms don't. They don't want to be known as lifestyle firms for obvious reasons, but I still think there you still want to convey that. The there's other drivers as well: mentorship, hands-on training, type of work. There's so many different things that you can use. And you I think not being able to tell your story as a firm is one of the biggest gaps that is all connected to what motivates people to look for new opportunities. The other thing is process. So speed kills deals. That's a common saying and saying, common saying in sales. And so if firms don't have a clear process where they know how many rounds of interviews, who the attorney wants to meet, the I think having decisions makers meet with attorneys on the front end of the process is better than later to save a lot of time, making decisions quickly and being respectful and letting candidates know these are all issues that I've seen in recruiting. And then going even back to a simple job post. Most job posts posts I think are poorly written. It's what can you do for me as the law firm and being able to actually attract talent? Sell the role, sell the firm. You can still do so in a professional way, and you can still have your requirements listed for the role. But having a little personality, a little uniqueness in your posting will make you stand out to the market.

SPEAKER_03:

And show culture. I mean, like you're caring for the person who will want to apply for this. How many interviews does it usually take to say fit a junior associate in?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say it takes on average three rounds usually these days. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less. It depends on the size of the group or the size of the firm. But I I it's actually been a welcome shift since COVID. Firms had to shorten their interview rounds during COVID, and they were mainly virtual, and that's stuck through, which I think has been a real benefit. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily any faster.

SPEAKER_03:

There's still a decision-making time, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

What should law firms do before they start recruiting to attract better, better candidates? So you're saying the job description, but is there something they need to prepare for before?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I think know your process. How many rounds? Who do we want this person to meet with? Who are the key decision makers? What experience is really important to you, and what experience is a nice to have? Understand the market of talent a little bit. What are your ex are your expectations reasonable for the compensation you're providing? What pool of candidates do you think you'll be able to attract? These uh being able to know your story. I call it secret sauce when I meet with firms. What's the secret sauce? It is a combination of culture, type of work, story. I work with one firm where it's a terrible start, where the founder of the firm was a Japanese American who was interned during World War II. And he moved to Chicago as a young attorney, started his own long firm, and it's it's still there, and they're successful and they're recruiting, and I'm working with them to recruit. That story really resonates with people because it shows positivity in the face of something that was really terrible that happened. And guess what? The firm to this day has a lot of Japanese clients. So it also plays into the type of practice that they have. That's a really unique story. That's something that can distinguish you on the market and can give some tangible nature. Law firms oftentimes are one to five names, right? So, what kind of is your story? What distinguishes you and can make you more human in that sense? A lot of law firms have been around for a long time where they've had the founding attorneys are no longer practicing or have moved on. And so who what keeps that firm keep moving? What is the interesting parts of that?

SPEAKER_03:

And I know a lot of firms have a big part of their culture, is giving back to the community through education, volunteer work, and sponsorships and that sort of thing. That can be very appealing for someone looking to join a firm that has more to it than just billable hours.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And pro bono, I would put that in that same bucket as well. I have just spoken to an attorney working on an asylum case and going to a hearing. And this person really is this is meaningful work for this person, even though it's not billable and the firm is supporting it. Um, it means a lot. And volunteering, same type of thing. And it there's, I think there's a danger. If you're going to be using that as your story, there needs to be an authenticity to it as well. Sometimes I think firms pay at lip service, but don't really do it or don't really like attorneys to do it because then they're not billing. If that's going to be your story, make sure it's authentic.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. That's a very good point. And let's move into retention and long-term success when it comes to placements. I know that it's retention is as important as recruiting. You want to make sure you keep them. What are the top reasons that attorneys leave their firms? The and those that are fixable.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I and one of your previous guests mentioned something recently where an attorney who left cost the firm a million dollars when they ran the numbers, which I was like, yeah, these are retention's a huge issue because it can cost firms on the bottom line. It also can impact culture and it can lead to other departures. It's super important. Uh there's so many things that firms can do, but let me give you one that is really on my mind that I've heard recently from candidates: mentorship. The American lawyer ran a survey of mid-level associates recently. And the number one thing that came up above compensation was mentorship. And I thought that was fascinating. And it makes sense. At the end of the day, the legal profession, especially for associates or junior lawyers, really it's an apprenticeship. You learn by doing, you learn by people teaching you. And people, young people, even I know that some older generations don't, there's always generational class clash, but young people yearn for mentorship. You may not believe it, but it's true. And that can be one thing, and it's not mentorship programs. I think those necessarily don't necessarily work all the time. It's authentic mentorship. And I will tell you just from personal experience from my law school class, the people who have had success and still practice at law firms are ones who have had an important key mentor help guide them along the way. So that's something I think firms can do. It's tricky because it has to be authentic and somewhat natural in how it occurs. But by law firms encouraging more senior attorneys to mentor juniors, that can lead to or even senior super senior or super high up mentoring partners. It doesn't always have to be junior either, but having a hand that kind of helps guide can really impact. And then a lot of other things we've discussed already can add on to that, right? Culture is super important. Studies have shown that who you work with is the most important thing. Your boss is the most important thing for your day-to-day happiness. And I meet with law firms and they're like, we don't have any screamers here. And I believe some of them, most of them, some of them I don't believe. And that can really impact culture and talk that toxicity really can be a huge turnoff and lead to retention issues. But having a positive culture is the opposite effect. Teamwork, collaboration, communication, expectation, communicating expectations clearly for juniors or other people, the path to partnership or whatever promotion path that looks like, being able to communicate it, even if it's Byzantine or opaque or completely discretionary, there's got to be some type of targets that you can share or expectations you can share with people to keep them in for the long game.

SPEAKER_03:

And to get back to the mentoring, pardon me, that is such an ingrained part of the legal system for law firms. It's just and it can be as simple as having someone sitting in the room with you as you're discussing cases and or procedures. It's not a it's not a, I don't know, a curriculum to coaching program. It's sharing how to do the job.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I remember as a junior associate, just knocking on I'm reviewing contracts I'd never reviewed before, and just knocking on a door of a partner and saying, I have I'm a little lost here. Can you explain what indemnification means? Yeah, and it's such a simple concept, but if you've never done it before, it's not, right? So just being able to bounce off silly questions that maybe aren't so silly for somebody just starting out in their career, it's super meaningful and a five-minute conversation can go a long way.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. Yeah. And that's one of the a little issue with having remote workers now. You don't have those hallway conversations as you're going to and from meetings, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And actually, I'm glad if you don't mind, I'd love to dive down a little bit on this because I think it impacts recruiting. I'm seeing it a lot. I agree with you, and firms are clawing back people to the office. A lot of big law, the large law firms are pushing four and even five day returns now in office. And I understand the concept of why they're doing that for this exact reason, right? It's really hard for people to learn when you have to schedule a call or a video conference meeting with them. However, on the flip side, for people law firms listening interested in hiring talent, one of the competitive advantages I think smaller or mid sized firms or other large firms can have over their competition is having some flexibility built into their system. Because I'm talking to a lot of attorneys who are really interested in flexibility. For commutes are long, there's other going to the office, it's a lot of work to do. Think COVID warped our brains on that, right? Oh, I can do the work from home, but you do lose some things too. So I think I understand where law firms are trying to get people back to the office more and more. But I also think if you're flexible, that's going to be a really ass a strong asset in recruiting and can overcome if you're a lower-paying firm, for example. That can be one of the things that you use to attract talent.

SPEAKER_03:

I've spoken to several attorneys recently that are on the mix where they're at home two or three days and then they're in the office two or three days. So I think there is a balance and it can improve the culture, like you said, but it also gets the openness at the coaching and the mentorship. And then the entire firm can get better because of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, if I am not running a law firm, but if I was a three-day hybrid, I think is the sweet spot, right? Because then you get three days in and you get all that good mentorship with three days in, and then you have that two days to have on your own time at home and or in office, you can still come to the office if you wanted to. And I that's a real sweet spot that people I think it makes sense to me, but again, a lot of firms are moving further than that, so that can be a competitive advantage.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Well, it'd be interesting to see how the trend continues. So thinking about these things we've just talked about, what patterns do you see in attorneys who stay engaged and happy for the long term?

SPEAKER_01:

Patterns. The I think the patterns that I see are one, it's the attorney has to be self-motivated to an extent. The practice of law is very challenging, especially in a law firm. And then as you progress in your career, being able to develop clients and a book of business adds a whole extra layer that is really hard. So you have to have self-motivation to be able to do that. But then having firm support, a lot of things we've already discussed play into that mentorship, other things. You believe in the mission of the firm, right? And you like your colleagues and you think it's you're in a fair environment. Expectations are fair for whatever that environment may be. So that is, I think it's both internally driven and externally driven by the firm.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you think is there anything that we haven't discussed that would help attorneys feel more supported, challenged, and valued in the culture of a firm to keep them in it?

SPEAKER_01:

I think understanding one thing is for people supporting people in business development. I just mentioned that, but that's something that I hear a lot from candidates where they're not getting support. I hear pretty intense stories about how firms have undercut attorneys from developing business. And I think it's better to have those conversations earlier in an attorney's career so they understand the process. It's hard. I've talked to business development coaches for attorneys, and they there's a whole industry built around how to support attorneys in trying to do this. So if you have no, if you expect somebody in their seventh or eighth year to just generate business, you're already putting that attorney at a disadvantage because they're really going to have an uphill battle to try to do. So that's one thing. The other thing that I think that firms really can do is a cohesive for cohesive strategic culture. Communicate with your attorneys, let them know what the path is, what your thoughts are, even express vulnerability if you're not sure. So many times I think firm leadership is it has a black box approach. And that usually leads to unhappy attorneys who feel that they have no control over the process.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, we want to be somewhat in control of our destiny, if you will. And especially if I've got to do business development, I need a firm that's going to support me to be able to go out and do events or networking and that sort of thing to build my own book of business, as you will.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And even having rainmaker type mentors, right? You can say, or bring in coaches to help train. There's a lot of things that you can do as a firm to help those attorneys generate business.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. I love that. So now you've blended business, law, entrepreneurship, your tour company, your beer tour company. How does that range of experience influence the way that you got attorneys through big career decisions?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's really helped because I've for better or worse, I have uh experience in a lot of different areas, and I can certainly, and I've also gone through career challenges and changes myself. So I know how that decision process these are big decisions. I work with candidates, and I'm I feel like I my personal approach is a very empathetic approach because I I don't try to, these are smart people. Yeah, attorneys are smart, law firms are smart, uh, in-house client, everybody's smart. Attorneys are just tend to be really intelligent, and so they know this, and they're giving them the tools to understand the role, the pros and cons, simple things that help put opportunities in perspective and being able to connect with them emotionally, I think is really valuable. And I've gotten that from all of my different steps in my career.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. I do find a varied history will help you be more empathetic and see and also be more creative in in helping people find what to what they're really want and how to stand out through their resume and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. It's a blind spot for most. I look back at myself. I'm not even taking shots at anyone in particular. It's really easy to have tunnel vision when you approach your career. It's also scary. So you don't want to put a ton of thought into it, is it can turn people off. It can really scare people. So by being able to sit down and think, okay, let's think about this strategically and let's use some creativity to your point and think about how we can approach this search from either the candidate side or the client side. Really powerful.

SPEAKER_03:

I have a coach and he says you can't see the full picture if you're in the frame. So having someone like you that's just outside the frame can then help put it in the right light. So it's you can get the best candidates or the best firm.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. This has been really enlightening as far as the recruiting goes. I've enjoyed the conversation. I know my listeners will probably want to reach out to you, have conversations with you. Where's the best place for them to reach you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would say so. My company is navigate legal search. So you can go to my company page. Also on LinkedIn, that's really easy. Christopher Bruce White is my long UR URL. I'm Chris White, so there's a lot of us.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And my middle name.

SPEAKER_03:

I'll make sure that those both of those links are in the show notes. And uh yeah, great information, great insight. I really appreciate be you being here with us today.

SPEAKER_01:

No, thank you so much, Marilyn. I really appreciate it, and thanks for all the great podcasting work as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to Lawmarketingzone.com to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law Podcast, and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at LawMarketingZone.com. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources, and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us to review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.

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Marilyn Jenkins

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